Battery recall

[zoidberg]

FWIW

I'll watch from a safe distance....

 

[Boathook]

Persumably, amazon know who purchased these and could therfore email the buyers or should the sellers be doing this through amazon ?

 

[geem]

The risk of buying 'drop in' lithium batteries.
People are turned on by the cheaper end of the market but have no idea what's inside the battery case. Even Will Prowse who opens them up and examines the internals has been conned. They send him a battery built to a good specification. He reviews it and says how good it is. The manufacturer then puts the price up and changes the internal build specification to something totally different and cheaper.
The sensible thing is to only buy from reputable manufacturers where you have some come back. Ideally not assembled in China.

Who the hell is BOOW

 

[lustyd]

Ideally not assembled in China.

Where the thing is manufactured or assembled is not relevant, let's not go down that route here. The manufacturer holds responsibility for QC and design regardless of where it's made, and there are good and bad manufacturers. Most manufacturers use China in one way or another, since China is the largest manufacturing centre in the world. Your prismatic cells almost certainly came from there...

 

[Biggles Wader]

They meant to call themselves BOOM but the advertising director was dyslexic.

 

[geem]

Where the thing is manufactured or assembled is not relevant, let's not go down that route here. The manufacturer holds responsibility for QC and design regardless of where it's made, and there are good and bad manufacturers. Most manufacturers use China in one way or another, since China is the largest manufacturing centre in the world. Your prismatic cells almost certainly came from there...

That wasn't the point. Assembled. Not manufactured. 90% of the world's lithium cell production is from China. There are cheap drop in lithium batteries sold on Alibaba where you have no idea what is inside. Safer to buy the components and put it together yourself. You know the source of each component and how it is assembled, insulated and restrained.

 

[lustyd]

I disagree wholeheartedly. A good team in China who do it for a living to a high spec with proper tools and equipment is better in every way than amateurs building themselves. The problem is finding a good manufacturer who builds and QAs to a high spec consistently at a reasonable price. Literally nothing to do with China.

 

[geem]

I disagree wholeheartedly. A good team in China who do it for a living to a high spec with proper tools and equipment is better in every way than amateurs building themselves. The problem is finding a good manufacturer who builds and QAs to a high spec consistently at a reasonable price. Literally nothing to do with China.

It will be interesting when you find said battery. Let us all know.
At the moment many lithium cell coming from China seems to have fraudulent paperwork. Claiming A grade cells when they are not. Working out the honest suppliers from dishonest is not so easy. Second hand cells have been passed off as new. It's rife. They know you have no comeback on them so they don't care. You either take the risk buying from China and hope for the best or buy from a reputable USA or European based company.
USA insurances companies have been insisting that only Ithium batteries supplied by USA based companies can be fitted in US boats. This is so that when something goes wrong they have an American company they can take to court.

 

[Trident]

The trouble with that attitude is that you really can't trust anyone. Sterling are respected by many (I wouldn't have most of their stuff on my boat) but when they brought out LiFePo4 they advertised it as their own AMPS brand but just put stickers on a cheap Chinese brand sold on eBay at half the price. They had very little idea of LiFeP0 chemistry either when I spoke to them.

Being a UK or US company means very little except the possibility of someone to sue unless they simply go bust and set up again next week.

I'm very happy to recommend Renogy, made in China but the only company to so far have independent UL standards approval in the US and Canada. Meanwhile Battleborn are using made in China cells but assembled in the US - and they are very good but have no standards certification. Instead they have focussed on have a qualified installer network in the US .

There are plenty of good Chinese built products - I'm typing this on one made by Apple in a boat being navigated by ones made by Raymarine (ok maybe not so reliable ) - plenty of companies use offshore manufacture and put in place the checks needed to ensure reliability.

 

[geem]

The trouble with that attitude is that you really can't trust anyone. Sterling are respected by many (I wouldn't have most of their stuff on my boat) but when they brought out LiFePo4 they advertised it as their own AMPS brand but just put stickers on a cheap Chinese brand sold on eBay at half the price. They had very little idea of LiFeP0 chemistry either when I spoke to them.

Being a UK or US company means very little except the possibility of someone to sue unless they simply go bust and set up again next week.

I'm very happy to recommend Renogy, made in China but the only company to so far have independent UL standards approval in the US and Canada. Meanwhile Battleborn are using made in China cells but assembled in the US - and they are very good but have no standards certification. Instead they have focussed on have a qualified installer network in the US .

There are plenty of good Chinese built products - I'm typing this on one made by Apple in a boat being navigated by ones made by Raymarine (ok maybe not so reliable ) - plenty of companies use offshore manufacture and put in place the checks needed to ensure reliability.

I think we are saying the same thing

 

[Pete7]

The trouble with that attitude is that you really can't trust anyone. Sterling are respected by many (I wouldn't have most of their stuff on my boat) but when they brought out LiFePo4 they advertised it as their own AMPS brand but just put stickers on a cheap Chinese brand sold on eBay at half the price. They had very little idea of LiFeP0 chemistry either when I spoke to them.

You won't mind if I disagree. I have lots of their stuff on my boat and it just works including their LifePO4 batteries.

The vast majority of LifePO4 batteries are made in China. The difference is Sterling offer a 5 year warranty and have a business reputation to protect and keep customers happy. Buying some non descript battery off auction sites, or Ali Express is however, a completely different level of risk. One that I am not prepared to take.

 

[lustyd]

Buying some non descript battery off auction sites, or Ali Express is however, a completely different level of risk. One that I am not prepared to take.

You could just as easily replace battery with cells in that sentence. In the UK I've only seen one company selling prismatic cells and they also manufacture their leisure batteries from those same cells. Not even sure where I'd source a decent battery housing, let along a reputable BMS from a reputable source (other than the same shop!)

 

[Trident]

You won't mind if I disagree. I have lots of their stuff on my boat and it just works including their LifePO4 batteries.

The vast majority of LifePO4 batteries are made in China. The difference is Sterling offer a 5 year warranty and have a business reputation to protect and keep customers happy. Buying some non descript battery off auction sites, or Ali Express is however, a completely different level of risk. One that I am not prepared to take.

I agree with your penultimate sentence - however I have commented before about my direct experience of Sterling's LiFePo4 warranty and whilst I am glad you are happy I would not touch their batteries with a bargepole. Its very possible they have made changes in the last 2 years to what they sell and who supplies them but the thing is you and I have no idea and the warranty is much shorter than many reputable companies (IIRC Battleborn just extended to 15 years from 10) and crucially they don't warranty how much capacity they will have left in 5 years.

I know very few professional installers and electricians who actually recommend Sterling for anything but I am sure opinions vary.

 

[Pete7]

Its very possible they have made changes in the last 2 years to what they sell and who supplies them but the thing is you and I have no idea and the warranty is much shorter than many reputable companies (IIRC Battleborn just extended to 15 years from 10) and crucially they don't warranty how much capacity they will have left in 5 years.

I think changes have been made. I believe the early LFP batteries were cylindrical cells but they switched to prismatic about the time Bluetooth BMSs started to become popular and the price dropped to a level LFP was worth considering.

Most professionals seem to fit blue boxes, all be it at the customers expense. Yes we all have a choice and indeed I have Victron MPPTs. The inverters, power management, mains charger and induction hob came from Droitwich, some 15 years ago. I have actually been there to collect a LFP battery. Nice to see a couple of well equipped workshops to test and repair stuff if possible. Oh and a large warehouse, rather than a shop or someone's garage.

 

[geem]

The trouble with that attitude is that you really can't trust anyone. Sterling are respected by many (I wouldn't have most of their stuff on my boat) but when they brought out LiFePo4 they advertised it as their own AMPS brand but just put stickers on a cheap Chinese brand sold on eBay at half the price. They had very little idea of LiFeP0 chemistry either when I spoke to them.

Being a UK or US company means very little except the possibility of someone to sue unless they simply go bust and set up again next week.

I'm very happy to recommend Renogy, made in China but the only company to so far have independent UL standards approval in the US and Canada. Meanwhile Battleborn are using made in China cells but assembled in the US - and they are very good but have no standards certification. Instead they have focussed on have a qualified installer network in the US .

There are plenty of good Chinese built products - I'm typing this on one made by Apple in a boat being navigated by ones made by Raymarine (ok maybe not so reliable ) - plenty of companies use offshore manufacture and put in place the checks needed to ensure reliability.

But you bought a Victron inverter. Why didn't you buy Renogy?

 

[Trident]

But you bought a Victron inverter. Why didn't you buy Renogy?

I have Renogy MPPT X3 - each will handle the full load of my panels but I split it 3 ways so I have redundancy - if needs be 2 can fail and I still have power. Only adds 10kg extra weight
I have 700AH of Renogy LIfePo4 (which have been flawless) but I made sure I had more than needed and all done with 7 X 100 again for redundancy. No weight penalty really as 2X100 weight the same as 1x200AH

I have two of their 60amp DCDC - one of each engine, again for redundancy and capacity.

I carry a spare inverter (from Renogy but not an LF - just a normal 3kw for 5 kg) for an emergency back up but could not afford the space or weight for two 3kw LF inverters so bought the Victron because I can get replacement parts or a warranty replacement from any Victron dealer worldwide and Renogy don't yet have a world wide network for places like the Pacific . I can this use the HF inverter as a back up for a short time whilst the Victron is repaired or replaced . As you know HF are not really suitable for high loads long term but it would keep my fridge and freezer and the Starlink running. If I had space and weight capacity I would have either two 35kg Victron LF or a Victron and a Renogy LF (still 28 kg though - another PowerStar copy incidentally made for Renogy by them so as you know, good quality)

I have tested the Renogy batteries myself and they use high quality components and well sized wires and the I think we decided the same BMS you chose for your self build. I've fitted dozens of their batteries and maybe hundreds of their solar panels and had no issues at all . I've fitted perhaps 10 or 12 of their inverters again with out problems and dozens of their MPPTs etc.

I also have a Victron shore power charger which won out because of the silent night mode - I've never used it in two years but I'm sure it to will be reliable if I ever need shore power

I would note that the average profit I make on a 100AH Renogy battery as a dealer for them is £7 - they do dealer rates and give great back up but they're not like Victron where they price to support dealers with margins in the £100s . I think when I bought 12 of their £1000 200AH batteries at one time they gave me about £40 each off as a deal. On an average lead starter battery at £120 RRP I make £50 just from the chandlery discount so you can see I do not support Renogy because it makes me money to do so or they in some way sponsor me. I chose them after careful research for my own boat and then when others asked what I had used I was happy to recommend them and still am. I got paid a good rate to design systems and install them and all that mattered in terms of product was that it was safe, reliable and that recommending it would not bite me in the backside