Battery Life.

[rotrax]

Much discussion in the past about this. Our chosen vessel has expensive OE Batteries, Lifelines. When we bought her in 2016 the batteries were 8 years old, but had been allowed to completely run flat by the previous owner. He changed 4, the engine start battery and 3 from the house bank. At the time, only 4 were available. The best of the discarded ones was used in the house bank.

As soon as possible after purchase, I bought a new Lifeline for the house bank. The old one, a 110AH job was fetched home to be used as a 12v power supply, jump starting a car and stuff like that. That was in late 2016.

I still have it, use it now and then. Tuesday I measured its voltage, 12.3v. I put it on a long - 3 day - trickle charge. This morning, after standing for 2 hours it read 13.1v. My heavy discharge tester, a proper garage one which gets bloody hot through the strip resistor, said it was very good. The needle stayed in the green after a five second test. After this five second heavy discharge it read 12.4v on a Wilkson meter. After a couple of minutes, 12.6v.

This battery has NEVER been on continuous charge. I see many boats in our club marina that have the charger connected 24/7 when on shorepower.

So, my discarded high quality Lifeline from 2007 is still offering good service. I know and appreciate the benifit of LiFePo batteries, but our current vessel runs two large fridges and a freezer 24/7 when we are cruising plus all the other stuff. The only charging for the batteries - 660AH in total, 5 Lifelines, I Chinese spiral wound AGM for the genset start battery, get their charge from the 400W of Solar through an EPever 30 controller and the Balmar engine alternator. The 60 Amp Charles built in charger has not been used since I fitted the solar.

Our previous vessel WAS left charging when hooked up to shorepower, the batteries were on their way out when we sold.

I believe you get what you pay for, Lifelines, in my long experience of batteries and practical LA Battery maintenance, are as good as you can get.

Steps back and waits for incoming....................................

 

[PaulRainbow]

All well and good, but there are a some failings with the above (bearing in mind i'm not a "lithium is for everyone person). Most notably ;

Cost. 4 100ah Lifelines = £2036. 314ah Lithium pack = £260 Usable ah with Lifelines 200ah, usable ah with Lithium 250ah

Weight Lifelines = 112.4kg, Lithium = 22.4kg

Rate of charge, vastly quicker with Lithium.

Each one of those points is significant. Yes, you'd need a few extra bits, but you have a £1776 saving, you'd still end up with a saving of over £1000 and a better system.

 

[RogerJolly]

..... I know and appreciate the benifit of LiFePo batteries, but our current vessel runs two large fridges and a freezer 24/7 when we are cruising plus all the other stuff.....

Not sure how the nature of the load comes into it (LA vs Lifepo4). Could that be expanded on perhaps?

 

[Sea Change]

Lifelines are not immortal, especially in hot climates. A friend bought a boat with 2yr old Lifelines onboard, and within six months he had to replace them. It's just too easy to accidentally deeply discharge any sort of lead acid, unless you fit a battery protector or similar.
When he priced up replacement Lifelines, he decided to save his money and has gone lithium.

 

[rotrax]

I am not trying the 'lithium against LA' comparison.

In a previous life I filled, tested and fitted thousands of LA Motorcycle batteries, as well as supplying thousands of vehicle Batteries from small cars to HGV's.

In my direct experience, which is pretty substantial, Lifelines have given me superb service. The 17 year old one in my workshop today reads 13.4v no load on a wilkson meter. With a 5 amp load, 12.6v.

So far, the inexpensive Chinese spiral wound AGM I fitted to my genset is giving good service too, but is always .5v down on the lifelines when tested with the Wilkson. That, however, only gets charged when the genset is running. Which, since the Solar and subsequent inverter install, is not very often.

Should I ever change a battery bank, lithium would be high on the list of options.

Fellow club members who have made the change are happy with the performance of their lithium, but several have experienced problems.

It is evolving technology, and installations I have seen vary from fantastic to pretty bloody awful.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I am not trying the 'lithium against LA' comparison.

In a previous life I filled, tested and fitted thousands of LA Motorcycle batteries, as well as supplying thousands of vehicle Batteries from small cars to HGV's.

In my direct experience, which is pretty substantial, Lifelines have given me superb service. The 17 year old one in my workshop today reads 13.4v no load on a wilkson meter. With a 5 amp load, 12.6v.

So far, the inexpensive Chinese spiral wound AGM I fitted to my genset is giving good service too, but is always .5v down on the lifelines when tested with the Wilkson. That, however, only gets charged when the genset is running. Which, since the Solar and subsequent inverter install, is not very often.

Should I ever change a battery bank, lithium would be high on the list of options.

Fellow club members who have made the change are happy with the performance of their lithium, but several have experienced problems.

It is evolving technology, and installations I have seen vary from fantastic to pretty bloody awful.

Will those not be down to the installation, rather than the technology though ?

 

[Neeves]

Should I ever change a battery bank, lithium would be high on the list of options.

Fellow club members who have made the change are happy with the performance of their lithium, but several have experienced problems.

It is evolving technology, and installations I have seen vary from fantastic to pretty bloody awful.

It might be interesting to read of the problems, especially if they are repetitive.

Jonathan

 

[rotrax]

Will those not be down to the installation, rather than the technology though ?

I suspect so. Two installations I saw were very poor on basic understanding of cable runs and termination.

The technology IS still developing by the stuff on sale. The newer bits available suggest they have a better performance than older generation kit.

 

[r_h]

314ah Lithium pack = £260

Hi Paul - I'd not realised Li had fallen that far in price - do you have a link to a supplier?

 

[PaulRainbow]

Hi Paul - I'd not realised Li had fallen that far in price - do you have a link to a supplier?

Sure, LiFePO4 Prismatic Cells | Fogstar Batteries

Looks like the price i posted was a special offer, they are £300 now, but still a very good price. I would go for the grade A EVE cells.

 

[Birdseye]

I am not trying the 'lithium against LA' comparison.

In a previous life I filled, tested and fitted thousands of LA Motorcycle batteries, as well as supplying thousands of vehicle Batteries from small cars to HGV's.

In my direct experience, which is pretty substantial, Lifelines have given me superb service. The 17 year old one in my workshop today reads 13.4v no load on a wilkson meter. With a 5 amp load, 12.6v.

So far, the inexpensive Chinese spiral wound AGM I fitted to my genset is giving good service too, but is always .5v down on the lifelines when tested with the Wilkson. That, however, only gets charged when the genset is running. Which, since the Solar and subsequent inverter install, is not very often.

Should I ever change a battery bank, lithium would be high on the list of options.

Fellow club members who have made the change are happy with the performance of their lithium, but several have experienced problems.

It is evolving technology, and installations I have seen vary from fantastic to pretty bloody awful.

As I understand it Rotrax, the actual voltage is determined by the cell chemistry and the state of charge. For lead acid the cell voltage is around 2.1 fully charged giving 12.7 for 6 cells though if you measure immediately after a charge you will find some surface charge giving a slightly higher reading as in your 13.4. The battery voltage does not indicate the battery condition unless of course one cell has failed.

Batteries lose capacity over time. Often by material falling out of the plates. Your battery reading 13.4v could easily have lost 50% of its capacity. Its here where you would hope that buying quality will help. More lead in the plates, better internal design etc.

Expensive doesnt guarantee quality but since lead costs money, cheap batteries do guarantee poor performance.

 

[rotrax]

As I understand it Rotrax, the actual voltage is determined by the cell chemistry and the state of charge. For lead acid the cell voltage is around 2.1 fully charged giving 12.7 for 6 cells though if you measure immediately after a charge you will find some surface charge giving a slightly higher reading as in your 13.4. The battery voltage does not indicate the battery condition unless of course one cell has failed.

Batteries lose capacity over time. Often by material falling out of the plates. Your battery reading 13.4v could easily have lost 50% of its capacity. Its here where you would hope that buying quality will help. More lead in the plates, better internal design etc.

Expensive doesnt guarantee quality but since lead costs money, cheap batteries do guarantee poor performance.

Appeciate all of that, but the pro quality 'old school' heavy discharge tester shows, after a full 5 second test, that the battery is fine as far as that test goes. A full discharge through a dead short, heating a series of copper strips as the resistance.

Considering AGM is inferior to conventional LA in the area of heavy discharge starting, after 16 - now, yesterday 17 years - I think it is a pretty high quality battery.

The best LA battery I ever heard about was a 6V Yuasa from a 1961 Honda C100 Motorcycle. It was 24 years old and still giving adequate service.

 

[thinwater]

Anchors are most often compared on an equal weight basis, because historically that seemed to work of conventional anchors made from steel. Or should they be compared by price, size, or holding capacity?

Should we compare batteries on the basis of equal weight, size, capacity, useable capacity, price, or expected years, expected cycles, or cost per kWh cycles? The answer depends on the buyer. Maybe only years or volume of the case matter? Or maybe usable kWh usable capacity per volume (common for cruisers with growing power systems)?

As I look at new batteries for my F-24, I am considering years but not cycles (I don't deep cycle much), weight but not volume (I have more space than I need), and I'm considering down sizing to equal usable capacity. Lithium may come out at 1/4 the weight, which for a performance boat is a bargain when we consider the cost of carbon fiber. Different buyers, different choises. Lifeline would not likely make the cut due to high cost, even with the long life. A different boat, I would use different criteria.

It sure sounds like lead is losing market share. Maybe not dead, but soon to expereince a step-change.