Battery condition

KREW2

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Yesterday I booted up the element 9 plotter before starting the engines and it showed 12.8 volts after nearly a week at rest. Port engine started fine then a warning came up saying voltage low showing 9.9 volts. The startboard engine started fine and it was showing a charge of 14.8 volts. I have two batteries both linked by two 1/2/both switches. I have never really got to terms as why I need two, is it possible one is on the way out?
 

ylop

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Yesterday I booted up the element 9 plotter before starting the engines and it showed 12.8 volts after nearly a week at rest. Port engine started fine then a warning came up saying voltage low showing 9.9 volts.
It started fine and THEN said 9.9 after the engine was running or was it saying 9.9 whilst starting (the pop up warning may have a time delay so not be helpful). If you had one engine running even for a few seconds and the voltage was reading 9.9V then that doesn't sound as simple as the battery - perhaps the alternator? perhaps the wiring? because the alternator should be putting out >12.8V. Do you have an alternative way to check the voltage at the battery - in a past life I had plotters which read quite different from the battery themselves due to corrosion on the wiring/master switch and was particularly sensitive to engine starts?
The startboard engine started fine and it was showing a charge of 14.8 volts. I have two batteries both linked by two 1/2/both switches. I have never really got to terms as why I need two, is it possible one is on the way out?
2 batteries is so you have options if one dies! is it two starting batteries one wired to each engine? or a starting battery (wired to both engines) and a house battery (for your lights etc) which can also be linked to the starter if that fails?
 

wonkywinch

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Is the plotter showing your actual battery volts via dedicated probes or network bus (NMEA) voltage?

Edited to say, daft question as plotter has it's own power supply connection.
 
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KREW2

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It started fine and THEN said 9.9 after the engine was running or was it saying 9.9 whilst starting (the pop up warning may have a time delay so not be helpful). If you had one engine running even for a few seconds and the voltage was reading 9.9V then that doesn't sound as simple as the battery - perhaps the alternator? perhaps the wiring? because the alternator should be putting out >12.8V. Do you have an alternative way to check the voltage at the battery - in a past life I had plotters which read quite different from the battery themselves due to corrosion on the wiring/master switch and was particularly sensitive to engine starts?

2 batteries is so you have options if one dies! is it two starting batteries one wired to each engine? or a starting battery (wired to both engines) and a house battery (for your lights etc) which can also be linked to the starter if that fails?
Charging alarm goes off as soon as both engine start. Is it feasible that the voltage would drop to 9.9 for a millisecond after a start, and this notification was slightly behind the curve I usually start up the engines, then boot up the plotter and any other electrics I want on.
I have always wondered why I have two 1/2 both/off switches. I have always just followed the manual procedures for starting.
One switch to position 1 the other to position 2. I will try and post a diagram of the battery wiring, maybe someone can tell me more about it.
 

KompetentKrew

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Not sure but as it is on the plotter I assume NMEA.
LOL, not saying you're wrong, but I would assume the opposite!

My B&G plotter shows the voltage that it itself measures and it's a bit lower than actual battery voltage (0.1v or 0.2v or something?) due to loss down the length of the cable. I would guess it's also able to show voltage data that it receives on the NMEA bus, but I know the plotter was measuring the voltage itself last season because it wasn't connected to a NMEA bus.

In fact, the voltmeter at the chart table also suffers from some voltage drop - the only accurate measure is the Victron SmartShunt because that's right beside the house bank.

You need to understand for yourself how your own electrical system works - which bank powers the chartplotter and fridge? Could something be draining them while you're away? How is each charged?

In the meantime, disconnect all batteries, measure with a multimeter, charge fully, wait some hours and measure again. Useful to collect a small load for testing.
 

Tranona

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That suggests the batteries are dedicated to each engine except when in both . Then the batteries are combined. It leaves open what your house circuits are connected to. Does the house have its own isolator? The plotter will only report voltage from the battery it is connected to, which might be one or other or both.
 

ylop

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LOL, not saying you're wrong, but I would assume the opposite!

My B&G plotter shows the voltage that it itself measures and it's a bit lower than actual battery voltage (0.1v or 0.2v or something?) due to loss down the length of the cable. I would guess it's also able to show voltage data that it receives on the NMEA bus, but I know the plotter was measuring the voltage itself last season because it wasn't connected to a NMEA bus
Actually I think you are both saying the same thing - its most likely to be measuring the voltage on the NMEA/SeatalkNG network rather than having a dedicated sensors sending the data to the plotter via that network. If he had networked voltage sensors I'd expect them on each battery and separately displayed?
Is it feasible that the voltage would drop to 9.9 for a millisecond after a start, and this notification was slightly behind the curve I usually start up the engines, then boot up the plotter and any other electrics I want on.
Its definitely possible that the voltage drops at the moment you turn the key (when the starter motor is working). You'll probably have noticed something like this in a car at some point - when starting the headlights and possibly dashboard dim. It shouldn't go below about 10V when cranking - but if your network wiring is long and has a 0.2V loss, that MIGHT account for it. Personally my instruments are fed from the house battery not the engine battery. BUT you definitely want to understand how its all wired because if a battery is on its way our you want to be able to switch those 1/2/Both options to get you home.
 

Tranona

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That is because the plotter is powered by the battery that is starting the engine. Much better as in most boats to keep engine start and house separate. There is probably nothing wrong with the batteries as they both started their respective engines. As you say the voltage drop on the MFD reflects the drop on starting. So likely the "house" battery is actually the port engine start (battery1).

Al works OK if you don't run down the battery with long overnight stays as you can always switch to Both to combine the batteries to start the engines.
 

PaulRainbow

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Sounds like one battery starts an engine and another starts the other engine and is also for the domestics. Not uncommon, but a horrible setup.

When the engine that's connected to the domestic starts it will pull the battery volts down briefly and the plotter will alarm. Nothing unusual there with this setup.

The plotter displays the voltage at it's power connection, not the network. It's not usually accurate anyway.

Personally, i would have a single battery for starting the engines, with a single on/off switch. Another single on/off switch for battery/s dedicated to the domestic circuits and a 3rd on/off switch for emergency paralleling of the engine/domestic loads.

I could be a little bit more specific if you can post a schematic (sketch would do) of how things are now.
 

PaulRainbow

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Actually I think you are both saying the same thing - its most likely to be measuring the voltage on the NMEA/SeatalkNG network rather than having a dedicated sensors sending the data to the plotter via that network. If he had networked voltage sensors I'd expect them on each battery and separately displayed?
It's nothing to do with the network, what if there isn't a network ? The voltage show is from the power input to the plotter.
Its definitely possible that the voltage drops at the moment you turn the key (when the starter motor is working).
It isn't a possibility, it's a certainty. The initial current inrush will be high, the the voltage drop will reduce as the engine starts to turn over.
You'll probably have noticed something like this in a car at some point - when starting the headlights and possibly dashboard dim. It shouldn't go below about 10V when cranking - but if your network wiring is long and has a 0.2V loss, that MIGHT account for it.
Again, networking is irrelevant.
Personally my instruments are fed from the house battery not the engine battery. BUT you definitely want to understand how its all wired because if a battery is on its way our you want to be able to switch those 1/2/Both options to get you home.
Agreed.
 

ylop

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It's nothing to do with the network, what if there isn't a network ? The voltage show is from the power input to the plotter.
Which is a Raymarine plotter so is it not powered from the SeatalkNG network, even if that’s the only item on the network?
It isn't a possibility, it's a certainty. The initial current inrush will be high, the the voltage drop will reduce as the engine starts to turn over.
For a man who was banging on about nitpicking the other day you’ve done nothing to help the OP - the question that matters is whether 9.9v is an acceptable level of voltage drop during cranking.
Again, networking is irrelevant.
Most people seem to say <10V is a problem. The point someone else was making about network (which you are right could just as easily be an independent power supply) is that if the voltage is being measured at the plotter it’s probably a bit less than at the battery anyway. IF (and it is unlikely but not impossible as the OP doesn’t know what he has) the voltages are actually measured direct at the battery and that data fed to the plotter digitally rather than being subject to the voltage drop in the wires to the plotter it would be more alarming than if its 9.9v at the end of a long thin cable. The OP has indicated that he doesn’t know if this is new or it’s always done this as he normally turns instruments on after engines.

I suspect most people don’t know what their starter battery voltage dips to during cranking have their eye on a gauge at the critical moment. When I had a single battery on a boat it would trigger a low voltage warning on the plotter (<11V but it didn’t display the actual value).
 

KompetentKrew

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Which is a Raymarine plotter so is it not powered from the SeatalkNG network, even if that’s the only item on the network?
I doubt it.

From Raymarine's specification page plotter pulls 20W, which seems like an estimate on the high side, but also too much to pull down NMEA's tiny little thin wires.

My bet is that it must have its own separate power supply.

From the manual:

idBwCiT.png

Deffo my B&G doesn't read off the NMEA network because it is powered separately and it showed the battery level even when not connected to an NMEA network.

Probably NMEA 2000 does have sentences for <battery 1 voltage>, <battery 2 voltage> ... <battery 4 voltage> though. I'd expect those to be separately selectable.
 

PaulRainbow

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Which is a Raymarine plotter so is it not powered from the SeatalkNG network, even if that’s the only item on the network?
No, it is absolutely NOT powered by the STNG network. The network could not support the current required.
For a man who was banging on about nitpicking the other day you’ve done nothing to help the OP - the question that matters is whether 9.9v is an acceptable level of voltage drop during cranking.
Post #11 is to help the OP. Your misinformation not only doesn't help, it hinders. A reading of 9.9v, briefly, at the plotter doesn't really tell us much. The plotter is wired with small wires and isn't know to give accurate voltage readings. Current inrush at initial start and an inaccuracy at the plotter could mean that a reading 9.9v is acceptable. What we might need to know is the actual voltage at the battery.
Most people seem to say <10V is a problem. The point someone else was making about network (which you are right could just as easily be an independent power supply) is that if the voltage is being measured at the plotter it’s probably a bit less than at the battery anyway. IF (and it is unlikely but not impossible as the OP doesn’t know what he has) the voltages are actually measured direct at the battery and that data fed to the plotter digitally rather than being subject to the voltage drop in the wires to the plotter it would be more alarming than if its 9.9v at the end of a long thin cable. The OP has indicated that he doesn’t know if this is new or it’s always done this as he normally turns instruments on after engines.
That's just more guess work, which is incorrect and misleading. I have already explained that the plotter has it's own power supply and the voltage reading is taken internally from the plotter
I suspect most people don’t know what their starter battery voltage dips to during cranking have their eye on a gauge at the critical moment. When I had a single battery on a boat it would trigger a low voltage warning on the plotter (<11V but it didn’t display the actual value).
I doubt that many people do know, or even care, as long as everything works as they expect it to.

It's best to keep domestic circuits separate from the engines, so issues with voltage drop affecting sensitive electronics.
 

PaulRainbow

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I doubt it.

From Raymarine's specification page plotter pulls 20W, which seems like an estimate on the high side, but also too much to pull down NMEA's tiny little thin wires.

My bet is that it must have its own separate power supply.
You are correct, it has it's own power supply, as does every plotter i've ever seen.
Deffo my B&G doesn't read off the NMEA network because it is powered separately and it showed the battery level even when not connected to an NMEA network.
Correct again, "battery voltage" as far as the plotter (and almost every other instrument) is concerned is its internal voltage. It's rarely accurate in my experience.
Probably NMEA 2000 does have sentences for <battery 1 voltage>, <battery 2 voltage> ... <battery 4 voltage> though. I'd expect those to be separately selectable.
N2K PGN 127489 can give battery voltage. But its part engine data, so the plotter still won't show that as part of it's own voltage reading. It would need engine data on the network and a separate page set up on the plotter.
127489: Dynamic engine parameters
 

ylop

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Paul - the only thing you are actually saying different from me is where the power for the plotter comes from. I don’t have a Raymarine plotter so don’t know - I made the mistake of looking at a wiring diagram from Raymarine that shows the plotter connected to a SeatalkNG network which doesn’t show a dedicated power supply (but I’ve done some more research and think this is an error by them - it’s a join power and network cable so it should IMHO show both). Arguing about whether it’s the network or its own dedicated wires meters away from the battery really doesn’t help the OP though.
 

lustyd

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showed 12.8 volts after nearly a week at rest. Port engine started fine then a warning came up saying voltage low showing 9.9 volts.
Sounds like one cell is duff, you seem to have lost 1/4 voltage. Quite common issue with batteries.
 

wonkywinch

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Normal procedure in light aircraft is to start the engine before switching on radio, navigation and electronics to protect them from under volts/spikes etc
 
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