Autopilot selecton

drk

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Have a ten year old racer cruiser 14 meters and 16KKg. Autohelm failed - ram still good. Need to replace and appalled at Raymarine's lack of help. ergo don't like them at all. Confused by options. Main issue is getting a unit that really works in quatering seas on broad reaches and down wind without 's' ing all over the place in difficult conditions. Being solicited for B&G - very expensive - but is it better and Simrad (the old Robertson) but frankly do either of these sell enough units to have really done better engineering or am I going to crawl back to Raymarine who seem to sell 90% of pilots in the surveys? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 

boatmike

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Simrad are merely rebadged Robertson who make thousands of big ship systems. Very reliable, superior control and you can buy bits if you ever need a repair. Don't know how B&G can improve on Simrad but most of their stuff is excellent but IMHO overpriced. Would NEVER fit a Raymarine pilot if I could afford Simrad.
 

jonathankent

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[ QUOTE ]
Would NEVER fit a Raymarine pilot if I could afford Simrad.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well thats alright then 'cos normally Simrad are quite a bit cheaper than the Simrad counterpart /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

boatmike

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OK but what I suppose I should have said is don't buy the bottom of the range from anyone which are designed for (guess what) bottom of the market... Buy a respectable bit of kit (mine cost about £3,000) back in 1995 which will then in essence be the same computer as they fit in ferries, ships, and big boys boats. The only thing different is the ram actuator and the one he already has will probably suffice. I should add that I heve not researched the exact models and prices but it's horses for courses. Raymarine are Raytheon's cheapies built down to a price. When they go wrong, (not if..when) throw them in the bin. Robertson kit is usually maintainable, longer life, and designed for commercial duty, but I would still be wary of cheapies. Can't really comment on B&G as I have no direct experience but their kit has always seemed to me to be expensive
 

drk

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Simrad and Band G are now owned by the same people. On the open race boats BandG is the usual choice. The gyro compass alone is several thousand dollars and is superior without a doubt and the data transfer rate several times faster than nmea. They therefore correct boat speed, wind speed etc. for heel angle quite well. But they do not have heel angle in their steering algorithm ((nor does anyone else) although a human will start correcting heading at the commencement of changing heel angle do to wind puff or wave. In the very fast "open 50 or 60" racers they steer downwind to true wind, straight as an arrow. no zig zagging as in my old top of the line autohelm steering my boat. But no body can tell me if it will be significantly better in a displacement hulled boat albeit a relatively fast one. As to Simrad - I have little doubt their compass is better than autohelm raymarines (whose not good enough plastic gimbal system in choppy seas and big rolls must be mechanically locking up periodically) but again the question remains between Simrad and BandG - and most of the commercial applications of the Robertson have little to do with the factors influencing a sailboat. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 

Bob_Ranft

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I'm also looking for a new autopilot, gyro unit, driving a hydraulic pump. Tempted by the Raymarine kit, but have been looking at the NAVpilot 500 / 511 autopilots from Furuno. Fairly new to the market, they are more expensive than Raymarine, but not as expensive as B&G etc.

If I'm reading things correctly, the auto learn program on the Raymarine units kicks in when the units are initially calibrated, and that's it I think. The auto learn program on the Furuno units is stated to continually update the boats handling characterists in varing sea conditions, which should be more than useful in quartering seas, althrough I understand the latest Raymaine units are also good in such conditions.

Don't think there has been any previous mention of the Furuno unit on the forum, if anyone has any experience of them please advise.

Thanks
 

boatmike

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most of the commercial applications of the Robertson have little to do with the factors influencing a sailboat................
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Yes they do! Especially demands for reliability and very long service hours.
And the compass unit is only one factor. You can in fact interface a Robertson with a Gyro-compass if you want that degree of accuracy but most makes of Fluxgate compass are reliable and accurate enough for a cruising boat and seldom the part that fails. Angle of heel IS a factor though but not because of what you describe. A monohull will react differently, usually requiring more rudder to make an angle correction than when upright. The sea state learning and reaction software in the main computer is the thing that influences this most and discerns the top range pilots from the cheapies. In this respect the Robertson IMHO is far superior to any other pilot I have had experience of. I have not experienced every make though, and can't comment on B&G as I said before. If as you say B&G and Simrad are the same it reinforces my view that B&G are overpriced, but even if both companies are in the same group that does not mean their marketing policy is the same or the product built in the same place to the same design. Thats why I would personally ensure that any Simrad I bought was in fact a Robertson rebadged product. It is possible their cheap range isn't. I do believe however that most Autohelm stuff is built down to a price and self destructs after a fraction of the sea time that most commercial kit has to work for. This is not just true of Autopilots but all sorts of other kit where leisure use = cheap = light duty = poor service = no spares available = take it or leave it attitude (need I go on) that commercial users would never tolerate.
 

boatmike

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Don't know the Furuno Bob but your assumption about constant active updating of sea state etc is one of the core issues discerning cheapies from more expensive units and I agree with your conclusion. The other is reliability. (See my other post)
 

npf1

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A lot of single hand racers use the NKE computer/heads with other people's rams. Might be worth investigating. I read somewhere about their recent R&D, which sounded interesting.
 

Bejasus

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we have a Simrad AP16 on our full keel heavy cruiser, and it hates big quartering seas. Throws a wobbly and goes into overload and needs resetting a lot, when suddenly thrown 20+ degrees off course and it can't keep up.
 

Bob_Ranft

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Re: Autopilot selecton [Re:Boatmike]

Just off to cross reference autopilot performance with Who Flung Dung - if any models can help him weave his bike through the Beijing traffic in a straight line, they must be good. Sorry gang - had a few. Well it's turned 9.30pm over here, what's an honest church going lad supposed to do after work, apart from having a few.

Back to reality, Furuno have a good reputation for reliability, but their autopilots must be thin on the ground in the UK at present. At the end of the day for cruising boats reliability, simplicity and ease of use must come tops over the multitude electronic gimmicks that seem to creep in. It seems as though all basic autopilots without a gyro struggle in quartering seas. But the more expensive units even without gyros appear to have more overall grunt to shove rams and pumps about before they lose the plot. Pays your money.



Take care
 

Koeketiene

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Found ourselves in a similar situation. Ram and drive still good, autopilot bad.

Got a Cetrek 730 - brand new + manufactures warranty - of a Poole based company. The thing has been working for over a month now and has dealt with everything from sailing in a F8 (could not deal with the weather helm in the subsequent F9) to motoring in an F1.
Brilliant bit of kit - "loses" about 1DEG every 5NM. And so for I haven't even run the sea calibration procedure.

Best thing of all - cost £560 - all-in.

My first choice would have been the Furuno 510/511. Lack of cash directed otherwise. Furuno are very, very reliable. After sales service? I don't know none of the Furuno kit I've got has ever broken down.
 
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