Auto LJ's and BIG waves

[LadyInBed]

in the Female crew lost overboard participating in NARC thread Rev Ludd said
"I'm not sure we can assume that she wasn't wearing a safety line. I read it was a 30ft wave that took her off the deck."

Which led me to think about being swamped by a '30ft wave' when clipped on (assume to a strong anchor point) but using an LJ that auto inflates!

Will the LJ inflate?
If the LJ does inflate, would that plus the wave be sufficient to break your tether?

 

[pvb]

I had one inflate in heavy rain!

 

[jwilson]

in the Female crew lost overboard participating in NARC thread Rev Ludd said
"I'm not sure we can assume that she wasn't wearing a safety line. I read it was a 30ft wave that took her off the deck."

Which led me to think about being swamped by a '30ft wave' when clipped on (assume to a strong anchor point) but using an LJ that auto inflates!

Will the LJ inflate?
If the LJ does inflate, would that plus the wave be sufficient to break your tether?

At the end of a fairly life-threatening pasage, during which lifelines including mine were tested several times (no-one fell overboard - just went swimming looking at the keel in the air), the 6 mm S/S eyebolts to which the jackstays were attached were distorted and had nearly pulled through the ply backing pads. I can believe in lifelines failing - and in at least one old case (Beryl Smeeton off Cape Horn) a lifeline with a nominal one ton breaking strain broke - interestingly without injuring her. She somehow managed to get back aboard.

 

[Seajet]

I don't think a modern harness line itself or the hooks will break , remember they were uprated hugely after the inquiry into the 1979 Fastnet ( Beryl Smeeton's incident was in the 1950's ).

I can easily imagine backing pads failing though, they have to be very overspec'd for survival conditions.

Auto lifejackets are well known to inflate in wet conditions, a particular problem for racing crews on the rail etc.

A cure for this was attempted with the Hamma ( sp ? ) activation system, which supposedly won't fire unless one is submerged - though I would consider being under a 30' wave as being submerged all right !

This system had a setback when some early ones were found to be too good at resisting going off and had to be recalled; to me they have never quite seemed the same - or worth the extra money - after that.

 

[prv]

If the LJ does inflate, would that plus the wave be sufficient to break your tether?

A standard lifejacket provides 15kg of lift. Hopefully one's lifeline wouldn't be so close to breaking that that was enough to take it over the limit.

Pete

 

[AIDY]

SWMBO' life jacket went off in the alderney race a few years back... told her to keep an eye out while i went to plot. and came back to the michelin man... was it really that ruff ???

 

[KellysEye]

>the 6 mm S/S eyebolts to which the jackstays were attached were distorted and had nearly pulled through the ply backing pads.

We tie the jackstays to the cleats, which should sort that problem out.

 

[penfold]

At the end of a fairly life-threatening pasage, during which lifelines including mine were tested several times (no-one fell overboard - just went swimming looking at the keel in the air), the 6 mm S/S eyebolts to which the jackstays were attached were distorted and had nearly pulled through the ply backing pads. I can believe in lifelines failing - and in at least one old case (Beryl Smeeton off Cape Horn) a lifeline with a nominal one ton breaking strain broke - interestingly without injuring her. She somehow managed to get back aboard.

6mm is a bit marginal for a jackline anchor point; most of the u-bolts I've seen for this purpose are at least 8mm, most are 10mm. I have seen those folding wichard tie-down things used; not sure what they are rated to.

 

[jwilson]

6mm is a bit marginal for a jackline anchor point; most of the u-bolts I've seen for this purpose are at least 8mm, most are 10mm. I have seen those folding wichard tie-down things used; not sure what they are rated to.

I agree entirely - now!

Plenty of new boats are supplied with cockpit eyes with 5 or 6 mm U-bolt lifeline points fitted, with very little backing plate, and not into particularly strong cockpit locker mouldings. One of the first things I changed when I bought my present boat.

 

[prv]

Plenty of new boats are supplied with cockpit eyes with 5 or 6 mm U-bolt lifeline points fitted, with very little backing plate

Yep - the supposed lifeline point in KS's cockpit is even smaller than that, a U-bolt of 4mm or thereabouts, with no backing plate beyond the two-hole washer it comes with.

I fasten lifelines round the mizzen mast instead.

Pete

 

[rotrax]

At the end of a fairly life-threatening pasage, during which lifelines including mine were tested several times (no-one fell overboard - just went swimming looking at the keel in the air), the 6 mm S/S eyebolts to which the jackstays were attached were distorted and had nearly pulled through the ply backing pads. I can believe in lifelines failing - and in at least one old case (Beryl Smeeton off Cape Horn) a lifeline with a nominal one ton breaking strain broke - interestingly without injuring her. She somehow managed to get back aboard.

Like other posters I think 6mm S/S eyebolts are marginal for the loads that could easily be applied during use. The Island Packet folding padeyes in the cockpits of their boats have twin 5/16 imperial screws and very substantial cockpit sides and reinforcing plates. If a modern lifeline was attatched to one of these it is highly unlikely the casualty would have left the boat-in my view. I will consult a rigger over the winter as I firmly believe jackstays running along the sidedecks are not the best position for them. With my boat repositioning would mean serious structural and cosmetic intrusions under the coachroof. I rather fancy a central jackstay. There is some information on this on the Island Packet website,posted by a regular long distance passagemaker. Any views on this?

 

[jwilson]

Like other posters I think 6mm S/S eyebolts are marginal for the loads that could easily be applied during use. The Island Packet folding padeyes in the cockpits of their boats have twin 5/16 imperial screws and very substantial cockpit sides and reinforcing plates. If a modern lifeline was attatched to one of these it is highly unlikely the casualty would have left the boat-in my view. I will consult a rigger over the winter as I firmly believe jackstays running along the sidedecks are not the best position for them. With my boat repositioning would mean serious structural and cosmetic intrusions under the coachroof. I rather fancy a central jackstay. There is some information on this on the Island Packet website,posted by a regular long distance passagemaker. Any views on this?

Many years ago I used to singlehand a small cruiser, that had no stanchions or guardwires at all. Most of the time I just went about the deck, but I did have a single central line that could be rigged from cockpit centre to near the bow, and back the other side of the mast. I only used it a few times, if it started to look really hairy, but with a home-made harness cand short line clipped onto that I could not actually fall off the deck. I liked that system, and agree that side-decks are not necessarily the best place for jackstay lines or webbing.

On many beamy modern boats sidedeck jacklines and standard harness line lengths let you go over the side (with high topsides so getting back virtually impossible) yet simultaneously are too short to let you work at the mast properly.

 

[Seajet]

On my Anderson 22 as well as the normal strong points around the cockpit I fitted a wichard U bolt for harnesses at each side of the mast foot, the idea being minimum distance allowed to or over the side if swept by a big wave etc.

I don't like jackstays for this size boat, webbing can fray and is subject to U/V & salt crystals, and wire rolls under foot.

These eyes by the mast have worked out very well; not only inboard, by happy coincidence a standard harness line can be left clipped to them, and reaches the cockpit allowing one to clip on before going on deck - going the other way, it allows me to reach the stem for headsail changes, anchoring etc.

On a larger boat I'd be tempted to replicate this with several eyes by the centreline, using my 3-point harness line to work my way along, staying clipped on.

 

[Sybarite]

On my Anderson 22 as well as the normal strong points around the cockpit I fitted a wichard U bolt for harnesses at each side of the mast foot, the idea being minimum distance allowed to or over the side if swept by a big wave etc.

I don't like jackstays for this size boat, webbing can fray and is subject to U/V & salt crystals, and wire rolls under foot.

These eyes by the mast have worked out very well; not only inboard, by happy coincidence a standard harness line can be left clipped to them, and reaches the cockpit allowing one to clip on before going on deck - going the other way, it allows me to reach the stem for headsail changes, anchoring etc.

On a larger boat I'd be tempted to replicate this with several eyes by the centreline, using my 3-point harness line to work my way along, staying clipped on.

Supposing you clipped on forward of the mast. What happens if you are swept over the guard lines still attached? Could you climb back on alone?

There is an argument for attaching a 2nd long strap to your harness that would enable you to release the short one and then drift back to the transom where you might have a chance of grabbing a boarding ladder.

Just a thought.

 

[sighmoon]

Interesting that the discussion has focussed on the attachment points. Might a webbing jackstay degrade in sunlight to the point that it becomes the weak link?

On my Anderson 22 as well as the normal strong points around the cockpit I fitted a wichard U bolt for harnesses at each side of the mast foot, the idea being minimum distance allowed to or over the side if swept by a big wave etc.

I don't like jackstays for this size boat, webbing can fray and is subject to U/V & salt crystals, and wire rolls under foot.

These eyes by the mast have worked out very well; not only inboard, by happy coincidence a standard harness line can be left clipped to them, and reaches the cockpit allowing one to clip on before going on deck - going the other way, it allows me to reach the stem for headsail changes, anchoring etc.

On a larger boat I'd be tempted to replicate this with several eyes by the centreline, using my 3-point harness line to work my way along, staying clipped on.

When we had a 19' boat, we clipped on to the base of the mast from the companionway and could then walk all the way to the front of the boat - perfect.
On the big boat, having to shuffle around clipping and unclipping will take too long to get anywhere, and I think for the most part I'd probably not bother clipping on, whereas with a jackstay it's a habit.

 

[Seajet]

Sybarite,

if clipped onto the eyes by the mast foot my lifeline wouldn't allow me to go fully over the side, so hopefully I could hang onto the guardrails and pull myself over those.

If I did trail myself aft a bit on a longer line, I could unclip the pelican hooks on the guardrails by the cockpit; having been overboard earlier this year ( first time in over 40 years, managed to flip my tender on the mooring ) even with the boat static I was reluctant to use the transom step, as there was a good chance of disappearing with the current.

Sighmoon,

I clipped on & off like this when I had a Carter 30, didn't seem a hardship; but if you can organise a jackstay, preferably on the centreline, great.

Personally I'm feeling less & less happy with webbing jackstays, just too unpredictably short a life with vulnerability to U/V & accidental cuts etc.

Years ago there was a very impressive system called 'Latchway' where one clipped onto a little device on a wire jackstay and the thing could get over attachment points like stanchion bases, eyes etc; seems a good idea but I think price killed it - did see it mentioned as an option recently so hopefully still going with some people.

 

[prv]

Years ago there was a very impressive system called 'Latchway' where one clipped onto a little device on a wire jackstay and the thing could get over attachment points like stanchion bases, eyes etc; seems a good idea but I think price killed it

Pilot boats use something like that, albeit on metal tracking rather than wire, so it would still be around if you wanted it. Still expensive though, I'm sure.

Pete

 

[Conachair]

Years ago there was a very impressive system called 'Latchway' where one clipped onto a little device on a wire jackstay and the thing could get over attachment points like stanchion bases, eyes etc; seems a good idea but I think price killed it - did see it mentioned as an option recently so hopefully still going with some people.

You'll find latchway on the roofs of buildings all over the world. clever syste. http://www.latchways.com/

Personally onboard solo I use a lightweight climbing harness and a grigri, so the lanyard is never longer than it needs to be , no chance of going over the side. Great at the mast as well, clip off and lean back into the harness with 2 hands free. I see it as leaving the boat unintentionally is pretty much sure to result in death, so stay on the boat no matter what.

 

[Sybarite]

Sybarite,

if clipped onto the eyes by the mast foot my lifeline wouldn't allow me to go fully over the side, so hopefully I could hang onto the guardrails and pull myself over those.

If I did trail myself aft a bit on a longer line, I could unclip the pelican hooks on the guardrails by the cockpit; having been overboard earlier this year ( first time in over 40 years, managed to flip my tender on the mooring ) even with the boat static I was reluctant to use the transom step, as there was a good chance of disappearing with the current.

Sighmoon,

I clipped on & off like this when I had a Carter 30, didn't seem a hardship; but if you can organise a jackstay, preferably on the centreline, great.

Personally I'm feeling less & less happy with webbing jackstays, just too unpredictably short a life with vulnerability to U/V & accidental cuts etc.

Years ago there was a very impressive system called 'Latchway' where one clipped onto a little device on a wire jackstay and the thing could get over attachment points like stanchion bases, eyes etc; seems a good idea but I think price killed it - did see it mentioned as an option recently so hopefully still going with some people.

I was looking in a builder's catalogue the other day and they had a safety device for when working in heights. It consisted of a small triangular arrangement the base of which constituted a cylinder through which a line (halliard) ran. A short line was attached from a harness to a ring on the apex. As one climbed, say, mast steps you lifted the triangle at the same time. If one were to fall, the weight on the apex would immediately kink the line and stop the fall. This would be handy especially if you were single-handing and had nobody to guide the safety halliard.

It might be an idea to adapt to jack stays to limit the snatch force.

 

[prv]

I was looking in a builder's catalogue the other day and they had a safety device for when working in heights. It consisted of a small triangular arrangement the base of which constituted a cylinder through which a line (halliard) ran. A short line was attached from a harness to a ring on the apex. As one climbed, say, mast steps you lifted the triangle at the same time. If one were to fall, the weight on the apex would immediately kink the line and stop the fall. This would be handy especially if you were single-handing and had nobody to guide the safety halliard.

Sounds like a crude version of a climber's ascender (GriGri etc). Some sailors, especially singlehanders, already use those.

Pete