August YM - Pilots wants the yachtsman to pay for the pensions hole!

Submariner!

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Captain Don Cockroft who is the chairman of the UK Marine Pilots Association asserts that there is a ticking time bomb in the pilot’s pension. In August edition of YM, he suggests that the yachtsman should pay up to cover the £198 million black hole in the pilot’s pension pot.

There is absolutely no doubt that Pilots form an essential service to the commercial maritime sector. National laws in most countries require a pilot to be on board of most ships over 20m in length whilst transiting through harbours. This is sensible as there is a sense of assurance for small boat users in the port areas that there is a qualified person on the bridge who has a command of the local language and local knowledge of the port and its operations.
In the 1990’s a well renowned pilot Captain Tony Starling Lark, a deep sea pilot formed the Sea Safety Group (SSG(UK)) which was a forum to lobby for safety at sea, promote understanding between different types of vessels and best environmental practice. This movement seen yachtsmen going to see on container vessels and ferry skippers spending a few days on a fishing boat. The key thing for our yachting community was that SSG spawned the National Coastwatch Institution which has been going strong for over 20 years.

The pilot’s job is dangerous, at times as we need to get out local experts on board foreign ships so that they can enter port safely. So whether it’s a local pilot or deep sea pilot, I have utmost respect for the profession which has contributed so much to this maritime nation.

I do however have to take issue with Captain Cockcroft’s position regarding the need to perhaps claw back more money from the yachtsman to fill the hole in the pension pot. We need to put things into perspective here and now. The YM article suggests that most yacht owners earn more than a Pilot. I am sure that there will be plenty like myself on modest income. I earn nowhere near what a Pilot earns, let alone the bankers in the City of London. I am lucky enough to have enough money to own a yacht and keep it on a club mooring. A posh marina is out of the question for me, but having been able to afford a berth in Shamrock Quay for a few years only, I can assure Captain Cockroft that we are already paying the highest fees in the EU for standard berths (I acknowledged that Antibes is massively expensive, but can we really compare Ocean Village in the same style?)

The central premise of the argument is that marina growth is blamed for the pension’s time bomb. This is completely fantasy. Here are some examples as to why this argument is flawed.

• Cross channel ferries moved to Portsmouth from Southampton after 1983. The area of docks used for the ferries laid unused for many years until ABP licenced that area to MDL and ocean village was commissioned in 1988. I would imagine that continuous revenue to port has been assured since then. If a marina had not been build, then no revenue would have been generated.

• Hythe Marina, Port Solent, a number of marina’s in the Channel Islands and Haslar Marina are results of engineering projects digging marinas from reclaimed land (or landfill in the case of Port Solent).

• Universal Boatyard, Shamrock Quay and even Bucklers Hard were former yards where boats were built.

• Whitehaven in the 1990s was a muddy hole in pore repair, now as a result of Millennium investment a flourishing marina on the NW Coast of England.
When I weigh up the evidence, Marinas have not caused the ticking time bomb in pilot pensions, perhaps it’s down to bad management? Lack of foresight or perhaps utter greed? Most Pilots I know are ex-merchant navy captains and quite possibly on a pension from their former shipping line (Or Royal Navy) as well as the second career pension from being a pilot. Don’t get me wrong, I like all people to be paid what they are due, but as with all other sectors, if the industry collapses, then that industry need to somehow pick up the tab for their liabilities in the same way as a person buying a house would not be asked to settle credit card debts or arrears of previous residents. If we agree to pay off pilots, then where would this nonsense stop? For a port to run, there are stevedores, tug masters, crane drivers, porters only to name just a fraction of the many professions which is essential to make a port work.

Every effort needs to be made to resists this call. Firstly, because in these times the average yachtsmen are not seeing year on year pay rises so are in the squeezed middle. But also other professions of the former docks will say “me to” Finally one further thought: A stepped increase will drive a lot of job creating businesses around our marinas to close up for good.
 

sailorman

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Captain Don Cockroft who is the chairman of the UK Marine Pilots Association asserts that there is a ticking time bomb in the pilot’s pension. In August edition of YM, he suggests that the yachtsman should pay up to cover the £198 million black hole in the pilot’s pension pot.

There is absolutely no doubt that Pilots form an essential service to the commercial maritime sector. National laws in most countries require a pilot to be on board of most ships over 20m in length whilst transiting through harbours. This is sensible as there is a sense of assurance for small boat users in the port areas that there is a qualified person on the bridge who has a command of the local language and local knowledge of the port and its operations.
In the 1990’s a well renowned pilot Captain Tony Starling Lark, a deep sea pilot formed the Sea Safety Group (SSG(UK)) which was a forum to lobby for safety at sea, promote understanding between different types of vessels and best environmental practice. This movement seen yachtsmen going to see on container vessels and ferry skippers spending a few days on a fishing boat. The key thing for our yachting community was that SSG spawned the National Coastwatch Institution which has been going strong for over 20 years.

The pilot’s job is dangerous, at times as we need to get out local experts on board foreign ships so that they can enter port safely. So whether it’s a local pilot or deep sea pilot, I have utmost respect for the profession which has contributed so much to this maritime nation.

I do however have to take issue with Captain Cockcroft’s position regarding the need to perhaps claw back more money from the yachtsman to fill the hole in the pension pot. We need to put things into perspective here and now. The YM article suggests that most yacht owners earn more than a Pilot. I am sure that there will be plenty like myself on modest income. I earn nowhere near what a Pilot earns, let alone the bankers in the City of London. I am lucky enough to have enough money to own a yacht and keep it on a club mooring. A posh marina is out of the question for me, but having been able to afford a berth in Shamrock Quay for a few years only, I can assure Captain Cockroft that we are already paying the highest fees in the EU for standard berths (I acknowledged that Antibes is massively expensive, but can we really compare Ocean Village in the same style?)

The central premise of the argument is that marina growth is blamed for the pension’s time bomb. This is completely fantasy. Here are some examples as to why this argument is flawed.

• Cross channel ferries moved to Portsmouth from Southampton after 1983. The area of docks used for the ferries laid unused for many years until ABP licenced that area to MDL and ocean village was commissioned in 1988. I would imagine that continuous revenue to port has been assured since then. If a marina had not been build, then no revenue would have been generated.

• Hythe Marina, Port Solent, a number of marina’s in the Channel Islands and Haslar Marina are results of engineering projects digging marinas from reclaimed land (or landfill in the case of Port Solent).

• Universal Boatyard, Shamrock Quay and even Bucklers Hard were former yards where boats were built.

• Whitehaven in the 1990s was a muddy hole in pore repair, now as a result of Millennium investment a flourishing marina on the NW Coast of England.
When I weigh up the evidence, Marinas have not caused the ticking time bomb in pilot pensions, perhaps it’s down to bad management? Lack of foresight or perhaps utter greed? Most Pilots I know are ex-merchant navy captains and quite possibly on a pension from their former shipping line (Or Royal Navy) as well as the second career pension from being a pilot. Don’t get me wrong, I like all people to be paid what they are due, but as with all other sectors, if the industry collapses, then that industry need to somehow pick up the tab for their liabilities in the same way as a person buying a house would not be asked to settle credit card debts or arrears of previous residents. If we agree to pay off pilots, then where would this nonsense stop? For a port to run, there are stevedores, tug masters, crane drivers, porters only to name just a fraction of the many professions which is essential to make a port work.

Every effort needs to be made to resists this call. Firstly, because in these times the average yachtsmen are not seeing year on year pay rises so are in the squeezed middle. But also other professions of the former docks will say “me to” Finally one further thought: A stepped increase will drive a lot of job creating businesses around our marinas to close up for good.

What about all those Pilot who took early retirement on index linked pensions, let them pay
 

Tintin

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I read the article and got incensed by his approach - basically someone has to pay so tough luck it has to be you.

I will never use the services of a pilot (at sea), I never have done (except indirectly thru the goods I buy), so I struggle to see why I should be in the minority tht have to pay for their pensions.

He tried to make the point that they have contributed to their pensions -a whoping 20% or so - so therefore someone else has to pay the rest. Well I have had to contribute 100% to mine.

He tried to justify it by saying that their job could be hazardous - well so can many others.

This public sector over-bloated pension rights fallacy need killing off forever IMHO.

The man is a right royal gold plated arse.
 

Submariner!

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I was incensed by this approach which drove me to write such a long missive! Captain Cockroft should take his lobbying activities to the shipping magnates who make loads of money!. Good on YM for bringing this to our attention though. They are welcome to post my feedback in the Sep YM.
 

Submariner!

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I read the article and got incensed by his approach - basically someone has to pay so tough luck it has to be you.

I will never use the services of a pilot (at sea), I never have done (except indirectly thru the goods I buy), so I struggle to see why I should be in the minority tht have to pay for their pensions.

He tried to make the point that they have contributed to their pensions -a whoping 20% or so - so therefore someone else has to pay the rest. Well I have had to contribute 100% to mine.

He tried to justify it by saying that their job could be hazardous - well so can many others.

This public sector over-bloated pension rights fallacy need killing off forever IMHO.

The man is a right royal gold plated arse.

...and should you every use such services, you are charged a fee, so the business model needs to be changed so that this activity sustains itself. That means coverage of wages and other longer term liabilities.
 

prv

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Uricanejack

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I have two reactions to this thread.
First. W.T.F. is he on drugs?.

Why would the Pilots Pension's be anything to do with any group who have had no business relation ship with them.
Pilots in many ports are like many other professions. Run by their own association as self employed contractors to the Port Sort of like Doctors and the NHS.
Some big oil terminals have their own who are employees.

If the Assosiation did not ensure they had a good pension scheme its not anyones fault but their own or their predessessors.

My other reaction is in some way sympathetic. A lot of people have been hurt by the private pension scheems and Thatcher and her successors deregulation of the financial industry.
I was lucky I was young so my Uk Private pension which is apparently worth SFA is not a huge problem. Older people have been badly burned. I expect this guy has been as well. Unfortunatly just because it was wrong you can't just say these people can pay. If any organaisation has to pay it should be the Port. if the Port is closed ie bankrupt. get in line with the other creditors and hope the government may help out.

If the port has to pay. depending on why the money is not there. Only if the port had not paid its share of contributions up front. Then it would be a general liability against the port it would have to pay from revenue. Some of this could be passed on to users. who of course may choose to take there business else where.

At least it is what I would do if they upped my charges.
 
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robertj

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The government won't pay, the ports can't, the management has been exceptionally poor and short sighted, guess what, why not take it from all those rich people who own boats. It's common knowledge that if you own a boat you're rich and us rich will have to dip into our endless wallets more or take our boat elsewhere.
 
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mocruising

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As a fellow serving marine pilot (Pilotage is only part of my job description) and yachtsman/yacht owner who has worked outside of the UK for the past 35 years I have no sympathy for this association and do not share the Captains views. Lets face it guys its never going to happen. Pilots are pretty well paid in the UK and if they as individuals have not put enough away fore their retirement then my heart weeps for them.
 

prv

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So does anyone know what the actual legal situation is and what companies etc are actually liable? Are any marinas/mooring operators/sailing clubs liable to pay, or is this Captain Cockcruft just arguing that they "should be"? Presumably it's the commercial harbours (current and ex-) that actually have the liability (if any) - so they're passing it on in harbour dues?

Pete
 

blueglass

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The government won't pay, the ports can't, the management has been exceptionally poor and short sighted, guess what, why not take it from all those rich people who own boats. It's common knowledge that if you own a boat you're rich and us rich will have to dip into our endless wallets more or take our boat elsewhere.

+1 all boatowners are rich beyond avarice and must be milked at every opportunity. Same the world over. Some of us MIGHT be rich if we DIDN'T have a boat!
 

Kurrawong_Kid

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If you paid 100% for your pension you would have no money for anything else! A pension contribution of 20% of income should have been sufficient to fund a pension scheme. Where it has all gone wrong is that actuarial calculations for most schemes have gone belly up because people are living longer, interest rates are at an all time low, the stupid Major Government allowed firms to take a "pension holiday" when the funds were in huge surplus and then foisted early retirements on them to ease the 1990's recession and Gordon Brown finished them off by removing a tax concession. Incidentally Pilots were never in the public sector, they were mostly employed by Trinity House until they were forced to become Self Employed.
Pensions are in a mess-public or private.
Agree with your main point though!
I read the article and got incensed by his approach - basically someone has to pay so tough luck it has to be you.

I will never use the services of a pilot (at sea), I never have done (except indirectly thru the goods I buy), so I struggle to see why I should be in the minority tht have to pay for their pensions.

He tried to make the point that they have contributed to their pensions -a whoping 20% or so - so therefore someone else has to pay the rest. Well I have had to contribute 100% to mine.

He tried to justify it by saying that their job could be hazardous - well so can many others.

This public sector over-bloated pension rights fallacy need killing off forever IMHO.

The man is a right royal gold plated arse.
 
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