At the risk of being the most unpopular person....

[ChrisE]

...on this board I feel that there are few things that I ought to get off my chest.

Three issues have been raised on this forum on which, I would appear to be in the minority but anyway here I go.

Radio licence fees.
We pay £20/year for the provision of a service that could save any of our lives. Less than the cost of one night in most S. Coast marinas. Let's get a grip on what is important.

Light dues
There is a proposal for us to pay for the provsion of navigation lights around our coast and the average opinion on this seems to be "We don't need them, so why should I pay?" Am I the only person that has gratefully seen the lights off Hurst on a grim night and inwardly felt a lot safer? Yes, we could all nav by way of our chartplotters but am I the only one who thinks that physical proof of position is worth a thousand GPS plots? I, for one, will gladly pay my dues for the comfort that it gives me on a windy, murky night.

Red diesel
We do this stuff for a sport/recreation, yet the general trent is to argue that we deserve the same rights as a fisherman or a farmer who does this for a living. Let's get a grip here. We do this by choice and to own a vessel as a hobby is a luxury that most will never have the option to pursue. Moaning about fuel costs will not win us any friends and will reinforce the public perception of boating being a sport for the rich.

So, I after this lot, I'd better go and start my own web baord, because not too many people will my friends now.

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[rhinorhino]

Re: At the risk of being the most unpopular person

I'll still talk to you

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[tome]

Get real Chris

You're not on your own here, and I think you are being a bit girlie. We're a collection of strangers, but I don't doubt we would find each other decent company if we met. Your opinion is worthy of any other, so stop making a fuss and get on with it.

Tom

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[VicMallows]

I will only pick on one of your points.......

Radio Licence Fees: These in no way provision a service which might save our lives. This is a function of possesing a suitable radio and the existance of the MCA and/or other listening boats etc. The license fee pays for its own collection and enforcement and a degree of representation in regard to frequency allocations etc. Perhaps also a little 'investigation' from time to time, though these days probably paid for by the requestor. The same is true of all 'radio' licences in the UK.


Vic

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[Bergman]

Certainly won't fall out with you - everyone is entitled to be wrong.

1 Radio license.

We do not actually get any service. We pay the Government £22 for a piece of paper. They do nothing, absolutely nothing in return other than issue more pieces of paper. We buy radio. We pay to be trained. The air is free. Having to pay for this is like taxing the wind (perhaps I shouldn't say that so close to budget)

2 Light dues.

Perhaps a case for this but. If no lights then probably more accidents whose cost would ultimately fall on the taxpayer, at least in part. Counter argument could also be that we pay for this facility through general taxation, VAT on boats and gear etc.

3 Red diesel. I do not understand the idea that not paying tax is some sort of priviledge. Tax exists to finance Government spending. If Government are financially incontinent then the solution is to change government, not feed their incontinence. You say we do not have a "right" to low tax diesel, my view is that they do not have a "right" to tax it to finance incompetance and profligacy. Tax is not a punishment from God for being rich (chance would be a fine thing) or a means of social engineering. It is an imposition on the individual that limits personal freedom and should only be imposed with greatest reluctance as a very last resort when all possible economies have been tried.

Please dont fall out with me after that rant



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[petery]

'we pay £20 a year for a service that could save our lives ...'

Strange, I thought it was the RNLI that actually did the saving and they don't charge or ask whether you're a member - and a 999 call to the police or Coastguard is still free,

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[longjohnsilver]

Hmm someone's rattled your cage!!

License fees - I believe what they collect only funds the cost of collection and regulation. Don't think it contributes in any way to HMCG and certainly not RNLI.

Light dues - not sure how I feel about this, where I go buoys don't really help me but would not object to a small fee, just so long as the info is not used ina back door way for further fees.

Red diesel - why should we pay tax as per road vehicles. All it will mean is that many more will be based abroad and fill in CIs, and those left in UK will use less diesel and therefore actual tax revenue will probably remain much as it is now, but overall spending by mobos will probably be less so income to local economies as a whole will probably fall.

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[StugeronSteve]

Come on Chris we've got to have a moan haven't we, but most of us will pay up.

There is no reason why pleasure vessels should enjoy the free use of navigational marks, although I would have thought that most of the marks and lights that we use on a regular basis are probably provided by the local harbour authorities and as such are funded through our mooring fees.

Red diesel is a strange issue, the duty levied on road fuel has always been Road Fuel Duty, how this can be applied to marine use I am not sure. One could justify the introduction of higher taxation on pleasure boat fuel by claiming that it will pay for the cost of navigational marks etc., but where will that leave light dues?

I have no problem with paying £20 for my radio licence, especially when you consider the safety advantages that DSC brings. It would be nice to see the fees go to the MCA rather than the RA.

Everything we have has to be paid for, and most of us appreciate that. What does bug me is cynical back door taxation and the Governments record in this area leads people to the "here we go again" conclusion.

<hr width=100% size=1>Bring me that horizon.

 

[bob_tyler]

"999 call to the police or Coastguard is still free"

Its Budget Day tomorrow.

I hope you won't have to withdraw this statement.

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[billmacfarlane]

Hope that makes you feel better Chris. I'm with you on 2 out of 3. I'm not with you on the issue of light dues. I think it should come out of general taxation like it does across Europe. The whole country benefits from light dues so the whole country should pay. Am I alone in thinking that's a simple solution or is there more to this tax proposal than meets the eye e.g compulsory registration, licencing and so on. Is it merely another ploy by the Royal Society for the Prevention of Enjoying Yourself ?

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[Twister_Ken]

Just on light dues

Most of us pay, whether we like it or not, a substantial amount to the government via the so-called Crown Estate Commissioners for no reason at all other than that 'they' claim to own the sea bed on which we anchor, or to which our mooring or marina is affixed. Use that money to pay for lights, but don't give it to Trinity House which exists mostly to keep retired admirals from hanging around on street corners. Put provision and maintenance out to competitive tender with any number of suitably experienced organisations. So what if they turn out to be Dutch?


PS - I'm with you on red diesel, and am ambivalent on SRLs – I wait to be convinced that it is A Good Thing.
<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[rickwat]

Radio licence no prob. Bit like the old dog licence.

Lights should be a symbol of national pride for a once great seafaring nation and a nation wholly dependent on shipping. Any levy on pleasure boating is going to be a drop in the ocean of the costs and be disproportionate to our average usage.

Red diesel is indefensible but established. People have bought big engined diesel boats on the basis of cheap fuel. Any realignment should be gradual over 10yrs.

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[Mirelle]

Not fair

That might have ben true once but not now. I am no friend of Senior Naval Officers, who have a formiddably good old boy network, parachuting into jobs ("SNO jobs") that seem to be reserved for them and which might otherwise be open to folk like me, but I will make a couple of exceptions and one of them is the current head of Trinity House, who despite being called Admiral Jeremy de Halpert (!) is actually pretty good - the other was the last Hydrographer, Admiral John Clarke who was much better, though an Admiral, than the berk from naval procurement ("a civilian" - pah!) whom they have now.

Trinity House are a very lean and hungry group of men - their light dues income is being whittled away because people like me who run big containerships object to paying disproportionately large Light Dues bills and the Government caves in to us but does nothing to make up Trinity House's lost revenue.

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[Mirelle]

I agree with you completely

no need to add to that.

<hr width=100% size=1>Que scais-je?

 

[jimbouy]

As a new starter i certainly agree on the radio Licence.

Ok so to a large degree it is a self funding cover the cost of collection thing. But, and correct me if I am wrong chaps, it does two things for us.

If you have a dsc radio it actually makes the dsc side of things functional (no use with out an MMSI number) and also it should help to cut down abuse of the airways leaving them free for what they should be used.

As pointed out in another post it is the RNLI that will come and rescue us but as for dialling 999... sometimes but not always!!!


As for your other two points I haven't decided yet.

<hr width=100% size=1> "It is a pleasure to give advice, humiliating to need it, normal to ignore it"

 

[bigmart]

Re: I dont mind

paying for the services that I use but the way these agencies are lining up to rip us off is frightening.

Like you I have no real argument with Radio Licensing. Light Dues, are a different matter. Why do Trinity House have to cry out for Licensing at the same time? Why is it necessary to set up a whole new, innefficient, collection system? There is talk of £100 being the starting rate for this taxation. It seems to me that this will barely cover the cost of collection so this will only be the thin end of the wedge. General taxation would be a fairer method of raising the money, failing that how about an addition to harbour dues.

Why oh why do those who advocate the higher taxation of red diesel seem to relate the correct charge rate to Road Fuel. there is no reason why the figure should be this high, other than the fact that, we are already brain washed to expect charges of that magnitude.

Finally has anyone considered the effect on the economy if the general populace are put off boating by over regulation & increased costs. These things have many ways of showing their effects. The Chancellor of the Exchequer (is that spelt correctly) may have a different view if his attention were to wander in our direction.

Martin

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[jimi]

Re: I dont mind

Red diesel .. think cost s/b the same as road fuel .. do'nt see why I should pay less for leisure fuel than I should to get to work. Road fuel is well overtaxed though that is a separate argument.

Radio licence - no probs

Light duties .. different kettle of fish .. Most Navaids are there for the benefit of large ships and are irrelevat to me. To take the Solent as an example
the ones I find useful are:
West knoll (unlit)
North Bramble CardinalSW Shingles
Bridge
NE Shingles
Needles LH
Hurst light
N Head
Lepe Spit
Bembridge Ledge

I'm sure there are a couple of others but the point I'm making is that most of the bouyage is actually irrelevant to the yachtsman ... and £100 pa from every boat in the Solent will raise an amount of revenue out of all proportion to the cost of the Navaids actually required by a yachtsman IMHO

<hr width=100% size=1>.. got an udder rudder, brudder?

 

[Twister_Ken]

Re: Not fair

Ah well, if times is hard they can always sell their private yacht <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again

 

[longjohnsilver]

Red Diesel

May your rudder always swing free of all restraints! B#'*@$#@!!!

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[bigmart]

Re: I dont mind

I disagree that Red Diesel should be taxed the same as Road Fuel. It is not for use on the Road or anything like it. I remember, for example, the high taxation of road fuel being justified by the extra costs to the NHS caused by excessive cars on the road. How does that relate to Red Diesel ? It is dangerous to assume that beacause its fuel then all taxation should be the same. What about Coal or LPG the taxtion rates there do not relate to road, oil based fuel, Do They?

My point about Light Dues is similar to yours. I don't mind paying for what I use but the method, of collection, being suggested will just generate more jobs for collectors & enforcers. It will not just pay for the service that is required by leisure boaters. Why should we bear this uneccessary, increased cost when there are much more efficient methods of raising the money?

Martin

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