Are Swedish boats worth the money??

[Birdseye]

I am looking for a new boat, and find myself faced with a choice between reasonably priced awb (Benny, Jenny, Bav , Hanse) or Swedish. And whilst I can accept that the Swedish boats are probably better finished, I find myself wondering whether a 37ft Malo really is worth twice as much as a 37ft Benny for the typical UK . European coastal cruising.

OK the depreciation might be a lower precentage on the Swedish boat, but it is likely to be at least as much in cash term. And insurance will be an extra £500 per annum and loss of interest an extra £5000 per annum. Plus, since it cost much more there is an increased pressure to be using it all the time.

As against that I suspect I wll be more confident in bad weather in the Swedish one, and there is the pride of ownership of course.

Pity there are no Moodies or Westerlies to fill the middle ground, but there arent. So what are the pros and cons? Are the Swedes really worth the premium or have they go above themselves?




<hr width=100% size=1>this post is a personal opinion, and you should not base your actions on it.

 

[Ric]

You can buy an aluminium hulled French boat like an Ovni or Allures for about the same as a Swedish GRP boat. Ovnis have about zero depreciation for the first four or five years. Even thereafter the depreciation is low. Their finish is as good as the Swedish boats.

I don't think any of the Swedish GRP boats offer good value at the moment, as they are all small-series runs, which is not really economical in GRP. Very hard to compete against Bav/Jenny/Benny who have huge production runs to amortise the substantial sunk-cost in a GRP design. The only smaller boatyards that survive in France make their boats from aluminium, which is better suited to a short production run.

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[aluijten]

The fact that both classes of boats are floating around means that there is a point to be made for both of them. My answer would be buy what you like and what you can afford. No boat is ever value for money! If you would add up all the costs and divide by the time spent on it, on average you wil not be happy. For most of us it is a hobby! These things cost money.
Back to your question. Actuall you have given most of the arguments yourself already. It is not that different from buying a car. Don't forget that Hallberg or Malmo are only as good as they are maitained. If you like the design and craftsmenship, go for it. But as you've said yourself it's much a question on when do I spend the money at time of purchase or during maintenance as you can expect that maintenance or the Swedish boats is probably a bit less. Also selling a popular boat like Benny's might also be simpler as more people can afford it. For myself I am thinking about a Hallberg. Why? Because I just happened to like their way of designing boats and building them. From economical point of view there is no reason to buy one. Why is it that most rental boats are no Swedish boats? Because at the end the Bavarias, etc. also withstand the battering of rental boats quite well. So these might even be more economical to buy.
On the other hand, there is still a large number of boats you can buy that are "more exclusive" then Bav, Jeannau, etc. without the huge price tag. As a example in Holland you could look at 'www.compromis.nl'

Arno

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[jonjo]

I think you have sized up the essential financial issues. Many like to sling mud at AWB designs until they have to spend their own money.

I question why the depreciation curve of a Swedish yacht should be radically different. 25% - 30% of the value of a new AWB is in the rig, sails, deck gear and engine. These are standard items that will depreciate just as fast on a Malo.

If a Swedish boat does depreciate more slowly this is more likely to be explained by supply and demand in the secondhand market.

Not sure Westerlies filled a meaningful gap in the market in terms of quality-price.

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[pandroid]

As others have said, its not a question of value, but of preference. Why would you buy a Mercedes or BMW rather than a Mondeo? The depreciation may be lower, but the absolute cash loss is higher. The difference is the style which they carry you in during their lifetime.

Its true that some AWBs depreciate more, but this is mainly due to the fact that Bavaria keep bringing out more and more boat for less and less money, thus destroying their own 2nd hand market. HR make 250 boats a year. Najad make even less and both keep the waiting times up.

One way of looking at it is 'duty cycle'. Like 'professional' power tools, the Swedish boats stand up more to heavy use than the lighter AWBs. This might be important if you live on the thing, but not if you sit in a marina all weekend.

The bottom line (and, yes, I've got a HR), is that the Swedish boats are more comfortable for long distances (we live on ours for 3 months a year). It's a mystery to me why people buy them and then leave 'em in the Solent. OTH, I'd sometimes like a cheap ditch crawler to potter around in.

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[billmacfarlane]

In all you're endless analysing the financial side of boat buying, you've missed out the most important thing of all when buying a boat - emotion ! As in all big purchases in life houses, cars etc, you know fairly soon i.e in seconds whether this is the one for you and then you spend weeks analysing to salve your conscience and justify your first feeling. There is simply no one reason to buy an expensive Swedish boat, but if you like the general Swedish look, appreciate the sailing abilities and can afford it then why not ? There is a whole myriad of reasons as to why I bought mine as opposed to a French or German production boat all simply to do with personal preference. Are they woth it ? It's the same old story. If you think its worth it depending on what you want then they are. If you don't then there's a vast choice of other boats out there waiting to be bought.

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[mirabriani]

It is a good reply.
My yard owner is keen on wooden boats especially Smacks.
He said something similar to me when I questioned the economy of
the restoration in his boathouse.
You simply cannot justify the economics when emotion is involved.

Regards Briani

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[pvb]

On balance, yes...

I reckon on balance that Swedish boats are good choices. Standards of construction and equipment are exemplary, and retained values are fairly high. The downside, as you've pointed out, is that they’re more expensive in the first place than many other boats – but you probably get what you pay for. I’d tend to draw a parallel with cars and say that Swedish boats are like Mercedes cars, more expensive in the first place, but the overall ownership cost can be pretty similar to much lesser machines.

But you don't have to buy new. Swedish boat quality is such that they stand up to wear-and-tear very well, and a used boat can offer extremely good value. After the various volume-production boats I’ve bought new over the years, I bought a 5-year old Hallberg-Rassy which is a revelation and a constant joy – both to sail and simply to own. Today, 9 years on, my HR is still a source of great pleasure.

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[waterboy]

Re: On balance, yes...

"I reckon on balance that Swedish boats are good choices. Standards of construction and equipment are exemplary"
I know of at least one instance where a Swedish builder cocked things up spectacularly on a 42 footer. Somehow they managed to squeeze an extra ton of ballast into the encapsulated keel. The buyer had already accepted delivery before the error was pointed out by the builder. The boat sailed like a dog but the builder was only prepared to rectify the work by sawing off the encapsulation. The owner and his surveyor refused to accept this as satisfactory.It ended up in court passing through several levels of appeal before it was eventually sorted. The buyer won and got his money back. Then there was a 38 footer from the same builder which also sailed as badly but it was never established, at least during my acquaintance with the boat, why. However, that boat, from new, had 3 owners within 12 months.
My point is that you can not rely on exemplary quality control, even from the best. At least with a mass produced AWB you can expect a fair degree of computer controlled precision.

<hr width=100% size=1>I never make the same mistake twice. I always make new ones.

 

[charles_reed]

It\'s called

rationalisation... finding pseudo-objective reasons for a subjective purchase.

All of us manics do it.

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[boatmike]

What is often missed in the "value for money" debate is that there are 4 basic variables.

1. Exchange rates and "in country" costs. Building anything in Sweden is expensive anyway so this alone does not make a boat better because it is more expensive.

2. Volume of production. Several of the German and French yards you mention build in high volume for "stock" and sell from stock. This gives economy of scale and makes them cheaper anyway.

3. Quality and "philosophy" of build. Many (not all) Swedish designs are built to an uncompromising high quality standard. This makes then cost more.

4. Design. The typical (again not all) Swedish boat is designed for serious blue water sailing. Some others are clearly not. This makes them unfortunately more expensive too.

Everything is therefore a compromise. Someone else said do you want a BMW or Mondeo? (Possibly Volvo would have been a better example!)
Nothing wrong with Mondeo's. Extremely well engineered car actually. But is it what you want?

Someone else talked about the "emotional" side of boat ownership. I have always been careful not to fall in love with boats. They can cost you more than women do!
But it's also valid. No good having a Mondeo if you are going to be jealous of the Volvo owner next door!

Finally, the initial cost of a high quality serious blue water cruising boat will always be higher but the depreciation (unlike cars) will be less. Over 10 years therefore the true cost is the initial investment less the second hand value. This is likely to be better in a quality boat than on one built down to a price, but you have to have the cash in the first place! And in my opinion you are quite correct, the middle ground, (Westerly etc) are no longer there in any quantity so the choice is increasingly between built to order high quality blue water boats and high volume lightweight designs built to appeal to the weekend sailor at a price. Big shame! That's why I built my own! Personally if I was going to spend some serious cash but was limited in my budget I would buy a good boat second hand rather than a bad boat new.....

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[jonjo]

Hang on. Half way through your post you appear to make an AWB=Mondeo analogy, adding that the Mondeo is "well engineered". But in your closing sentence you seem to be saying that on a limited budget the choice boils down to a bad new boat or good 2nd hand.

Do you think there is the equivalent of a Ford Mondeo in the new yacht market place?

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[boatmike]

I didnt start the Mondeo thing, and the comparison between cars and boats is not really valid. I only sought to use the comparison to make a general point that agreed with the previous post in that there is no point buying a Mondeo if you would rather have a BMW.

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[Guest]

For me the point of owning a boat is a mixture of pride of ownership, enjoying good sailing (which is a mixture of enjoying the sensation of sailing a boat that is a delight to sail, and having confidence in the boat), and doing decent cruises every year without being held back by the boat.

Although AWB's are perhaps good value in accountant's terms (where value is measured as pound per unit of volume, or LOA), they don't begin to meet the purposes why I buy a boat. For that reason they would be terrible value for me, and I wouldn't consider one, and wouldn't take their cost into account in assessing whether Swedish boats are good value any more than I would take into account the cost of, say, a campervan.

On the pride of ownership point, I love it that in nearly every port we visit, people come round to admire my Contessa. For me this is one of the profoundest pleasures. I feel sorry for the number of owners of AWB's who come round and say words to the effect: "of course, what I really wanted was a 'proper' boat like yours, but because of X I had to get an AWB". For me, that is sad when an owner feels the need to apologise for his boat.

Typically reason X is either (a) money or (b) family. If I were in their shoes I would buy something like a folkboat, which should in most cases answer (a), and also (b), 'cos the family are much more likely to love sailing a small boat that they can handle themselves, take up creeks, and is generally fun to sail and they can take pride in, than an AWB just because it has a shower compartment.

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[Birdseye]

Ric _ I agree that the Ovni is very attractive. I thought I had found the answer when I saw the boat show boat, and I might still go that way. But I am uneasy about stability and the purely internal ballast. A Southerly is a better keel system IMHO, but is pretty plasticky.

Any other French aluminium builders?

<hr width=100% size=1>this post is a personal opinion, and you should not base your actions on it.

 

[andy_wilson]

\'duty cycle\'. Like \'professional\' power tools

Good analogy.

My Bosch drill/driver is built like a brick wotsit according to the guy who can fix this sort of thing. It has cost me far more in replacement batteries than I would have spent on replacement 'budget' tools c/w batteries, chargers accessories etc.

Therefore, the oft overlooked comparison is that of a very expensive 'package' from Scandinavia which will cost exactly the same each year in repairs and replacements of ancilliaries (batteries, winches, standing and running rigging, lost boat hooks and pan handles, bent pushpit rails...) as something costing half as much.

The answer therefore is caught in the emotion of ownership.

Unless the Scandinavian hull can do things that the AWB just can't. And for many users, this is just not the case.

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[Birdseye]

The interesting thing about these replies is what they dont mention very much - sailing performance. Most of the replies stress emotion / pride of ownership etc which are valid reasons, but when the comparison is between (say) a Benny plus a small Porsche or a Malo, I'm not sure I dont prefer the attraction of the second toy.

And my own experience in manufacturing industry tells me that the quality from a mass production plant is always better than anything relying on manual skill / conscientious employees. So yes, a Benny might be specified in the first place for lighter duty than an HR but I would be a lot more sure that it actually met its design spec.

Asad PS. My next door neighbour has just dropped dead at 58. So today I fell like buying the Swedish boat and the Porsche. Financial reality will return next week!

<hr width=100% size=1>this post is a personal opinion, and you should not base your actions on it.

 

[Oldhand]

<And my own experience in manufacturing industry tells me that the quality from a mass production plant is always better than anything relying on manual skill / conscientious employees>

Oh yeah? My experience of manufacturing industry tells me mass production means engineered by the accountants. No further expalanation required.

Answers to this question will be one of justifying a Swedish boat from those who own one and justifying a non Swedish boat from those who don't. So on that basis I don't expect the originator to get a good answer.

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[ovniowners]

Birdseye,

My father has an Ovni 385, and my uncle an HR 43. Having spent time on both, I much prefer the design and layout of the Ovni, and the lifting plate + rudder make it a highly flexible boat. Our Ovni has been across the Atlantic with the ARC, as have many others, so I have no great concerns about stability. While the interior quality of the Ovni is pretty good, I think the HR's quality is slightly better. I would compare the Ovni to a Land Rover - it is both well made and designed to be used hard. The HR to me is more of a BMW X5 - very comfortable but a bit too prissy inside to be used hard.

In the years to come when I buy a boat, I would have no hesitation in choosing an Ovni, however I would specify the 'posh' interior as shown on the 345 at SIBS this year.


Paul Brown

<hr width=100% size=1>The Ovni Owners' Club:

www.ovniowners.co.uk