Are speed limits any use?

[fireball]

Are speed limits any use?

All around us are rules and limits - on the road there are loads of different speed limits and with that there are ways to catch those who choose to ignore them.
We don't entirely get away from this on the water either. Our harbours invariably have a speed limit, but to what purpose?
Well, the obvious answer is safety. As in, It is unsafe to travel over the speed limit - but is it?

In Chichester Harbour, the speed limit is 8 knots. Why 8 knots? I don't know, but it is a speed that most of the displacement craft there cannot achieve.
So - it isn't safe to travel at over 8 knots then? Well - it must be, because the sailing boats are not limited, and you can see quite a large number of racing boats regularly doing 15-20 knots plus.
So - its ok for a dinghy or sailing yacht to travel faster than the limit but not the power driven boats ... why is that then? Well - that could be answered by the 'wash' argument. However, we all know that a planning boat creates less wash than one just coming up onto the plane. So the argument doesn't quite stand.
What we end up with then is a group of dinghies haring around the harbour at breakneck speed whilst the powerboats aim to transit as quickly as possible and end up creating maximum wash.
However, it isn't all sparkling for the dinghies - they now have the moral obligation to avoid the cruising sail and power boats - as it has been deemed the slower vessels cannot adequately anticipate the wild courses of the dinghies.

We could of course, bring all the boats down to the same speed limit - but then with many dinghies quite a distance from the harbour entrance their racing will be curtailed and the enjoyment reduced - so even less could enjoy the harbour!

Perhaps what we should do is bring in a 'sensible speed' limit. After all, going through the moorings at Itchenor Reach or at Emsworth is going to be dangerous at 8 knots, but probably ok at 4 or 5, but it does depend on the wash created, conversly, one winters afternoon during the week it is perfectly safe to travel at 30 knots (baring a lump of wood in the water, but that's your lookout!).
So - why can't we introduce this 'variable' speed limit for power driven craft ... well - for one, how do you judge 'sensible' - my sensible speed limit is different to anothers so to be successfully prosecuted in 'speeding' we'd be reliant on the judge of the day, and with no set limits it's going to be pot luck - which just isn't fair! Secondly whilst most of us here are responsible enough to judge 'safe speed' and usually do so, many water users do not have the experience or understand the wider implications their actions have, and therefore a finite speed limit is required.

 

[lw395]

Whilst my dinghy does 20kts at times, it does so quietly with minimal wash, with no adverse effect on anyone. On the days it will do this speed, there will be some chop on the harbour anyway.
The same is not true of a powerboat.
The current situation works extremely well, a large number of people are kept fairly happy in a pretty small space.
What may be needed is a little more regulation of excess wash in many harbours.

The need to avoid cruising boats is really not a problem, the only time that give way rules come into play is generally when both dinghies and cruisers are going at a steady, similar speed (e.g if the dinghy is beating), even then it is generally tactically better to go around the cruiser. Fed week is a bit of a special case, but this year we had no issues with cruisers at all, power or sail.

 

[Chris_Robb]

QUote>> as it has been deemed the slower vessels cannot adequately anticipate the wild courses of the dinghies.


Speed limit through moored or anchored boats should be perhaps be nearer 6 knots, reduced wash etc, and perhaps higher in the open reaches of the harbour. How and why dinghies are the exception to this rule I don't know, but you would certainly have the Itchenor 14's at your throat if you proposed any change to this!!!!

 

[fireball]

I have and do, travel perfectly safely at 15/16 knots through moored boats - they are a reasonable distance appart and as it isn't in a conjested part of the harbour I've got time to see if I would be endagering anyone. But it isn't always the case.

But - why should the power driven craft be restricted in this manner if the sail boats are not?

Granted - most weekends it can get stupidly busy - especially when Chi marina goes into free flow, but during the evenings it is mostly empty.

 

[fireball]

The current situation works extremely well, a large number of people are kept fairly happy in a pretty small space.
What may be needed is a little more regulation of excess wash in many harbours.

I've pulled my dinghy sailing back to weekday evenings, but the wash created by any craft can be good or bad.
If, during the evenings, a powerboat was allowed to pass through at speed - would this not be so bad? So long as they did so in a safe manner, of course, conversly it might be safer for them to go through at 4-5 knots - for the short period they are in the vicininty of other craft.

 

[Observer]

Speed limits on the road are a proxy for defining the boundary between 'safe' and 'unsafe' driving. They are necessarily a 'one size fits all' approach that doesn't and can't hope to discriminate between vehicles, road conditions, traffic conditions etc., all of which would be necessary to properly define that boundary in any given circumstances. Limits also give the police a 'tool' which they can apply to penalise drivers whose driving behaviour is (in their view) unsafe or 'borderline' without having to prove one of the other driving offences (careless driving, driving without due consideration and dangerous driving), all of which require qualitatively satisfactory evidence as opposed to speeding, which is a "strict liability" offence.

Much of the above also applies to speed limits on the water, with the additional consideration that the speed limit may also be set at a level that is intended to reduce wash. Of course, wash is a function of hull size and shape, not merely speed (and, as we know, planing boats' wash will reduce substantially once 'over the hump'), so that makes the water speed limits even more of a blunt instrument. Nevertheless, I think it's fair to say that the intent is the same.

The issue, imo, is not in whether the limits exist or not or at what level but how they're enforced. Some degree of enforcement is necessary or the existence of a limit is pointless.

Generally, I don't have any complaint that water speed limits are enforced too rigorously, perhaps the opposite. I hold the reverse view on road speed limits, where enforcement practice has increased exponentially but it's not making drivers any better or safer.

 

[tokenjam]

Now I won't get away with this but..
I would eliminate all speed limits and other sanctions.
Instead I would have VERY severe consequences for (the laughingly called) accidents. The consequences would escalate in direct proportion to the misdemeanor.
E.G. Near mis due to carelessness - 1st heavy fine, 2nd confiscation, 3rd slammer
Damage to property 1st confiscation, 2nd slammer
death = slammer/death

Let the discussion commence

I'm ready to vote LibDem now

 

[lw395]

If, during the evenings, a powerboat was allowed to pass through at speed - would this not be so bad?

You have to remeber the harbour is not just for boats, there are wildlife, residents, fishing enthusiasts, the general public to consider too. Restricting fast powerboats is a lot easier by speed than by noise limits. On light evenings, noise goes a long way.
Watching a sailboard do 25kts is a lot more pleasant to joe public than listening to a gas guzzler do 25kts.
There was a thread about possible speed limits for racing dinghies on parts of Windermere. That does seem unreasonable to me. Obviously I'm not condoning flat out planing in between swimmers, but we have enough sense to avoid that without a speed limit.

 

[jenku]

Personally, I don't care so much about speed. I'd rather se "wash-limits", and then everybody may go as fast as he can without creating wash.

 

[Lakesailor]

I'm not condoning flat out planing in between swimmers, but we have enough sense to avoid that without a speed limit.

But laws and rules are made for those who don't have any sense.
The water scooter pilots in the clip on the other thread were probably looking everywhere but where they were going. I wouldn't fancy swimming or canoeing where planing boats would be moving around.

 

[ricky_s]

If, during the evenings, a powerboat was allowed to pass through at speed - would this not be so bad?

You have to remeber the harbour is not just for boats, there are wildlife, residents, fishing enthusiasts, the general public to consider too. Restricting fast powerboats is a lot easier by speed than by noise limits. On light evenings, noise goes a long way.
Watching a sailboard do 25kts is a lot more pleasant to joe public than listening to a gas guzzler do 25kts.
There was a thread about possible speed limits for racing dinghies on parts of Windermere. That does seem unreasonable to me. Obviously I'm not condoning flat out planing in between swimmers, but we have enough sense to avoid that without a speed limit.

My boat probably needs about 2500 RPM to keep to 8 knots, which is why I generally go along at slower speeds to save fuel, but at 3000 I could be doing 20+ Knots. At this speed I would be producing a lot less wash than at 8 Knots plus would be out to sea in about 10 minutes, so all the fishermen etc. would be disturbed for a much shorter period.

 

[fireball]

But laws and rules are made for those who don't have any sense.

There you have it ....
the speed rules are meant to be there to protect us against the 'I'm alright Jack' brigade ... but are such a blunt tool that they are not effective.

Perhaps, to enable us to remove speed limits, we should have a "Seamans" qualification which indicates that we've got the understanding and do not need to abide by the 'silly little rules' ...

 

[JasonClark]

There you have it ....
the speed rules are meant to be there to protect us against the 'I'm alright Jack' brigade ... but are such a blunt tool that they are not effective.

Perhaps, to enable us to remove speed limits, we should have a "Seamans" qualification which indicates that we've got the understanding and do not need to abide by the 'silly little rules' ...

And that points directly at the exhaustive thread about Boat driving licence....http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212733

which i think was agreed was untenable.

 

[fireball]

Ah - they were considered untenable as the method of policing won't work. However, in a harbour you are in a specific location where they already have patrols - and it wouldn't nescersarily need to be everyone with a seamans licence - just restrict those without to 5 knots. The harbour patrols will know who has and hasn't got a licence - they'll recognise most of them...

 

[Doghousekeeper]

Watching a sailboard do 25kts is a lot more pleasant to joe public than listening to a gas guzzler do 25kts.
QUOTE]

Oh I don't know - I think I'd rather watch the powerboat

 

[[32511]]

Here, we have 4 knots round the moorings, which, as they are fairly tightly packed, seems sensible. Beyond these, we have seaplanes taking off, so anything goes. It all seems to work; the main problem with wake seems to be from the ferries and other biggies out in the sound.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Speed and wash are two different but related topics. Speed is about reaction times when something unexpected happens. Wash is about comfort for other water users, wildlife and erosion. Unfortunately, speed/wash making formula vary greatly between different sort of vessels. Consider a kite surfer and a frigate at 20 knots. Or a fishing boat and a sailing dinghy at 10 knots. But it's not really possible to set a speed limit per category of vessel, so it has to be a blanket limit. And, as a good rule of thumb, the slower any vessel goes, the less wake it creates. So we're stuck with low speed limits to control wash, which also gives helms time to react when something unexpected happens. Not a bad compromise.

As for those who want to do a greater speed on a weekday evening, coz there's no one else about, how do you know? There might be someone hanging upside down over the back of their boat, spanner in one hand and screwdriver in the other, trying to change a rudder hanging. Or someone up a mast. Or someone about to serve a boiling hot Irish Stew. And then along comes some wassock at 20 knots leaving behind a v-shaped tsunami. Just coz you can't see them, doesn't mean they're not there.

 

[fireball]

As for those who want to do a greater speed on a weekday evening, coz there's no one else about, how do you know?

Cos - around our area to get onto your boat you need a tender ... so a tender hanging out the back is a sure sign there is someone on there ...
Why can't we have different speed limits for different types of vessel? Not so different to roads is it? Or have ppl forgotten the limits for the different size vehicles ... and those that are towing - or do we just ignore them.

 

[Twister_Ken]

The tender might be alongside the blindside and the owner in it, scraping weed off his waterline. The tender might be deflated and in the cockpit locker. The tender might be rolled up on the foredeck. The people aboard might have been dropped off by a club launch. People may have been left aboard while someone in the tender has gone off to bring back fish and chips.

 

[fireball]

other than the blindside - at which point you don't know if there is someone about to come out behind a moored boat or not, basically its a minimum wash scenario ....

btw - I'm quite happy doing 15-16 knots up through our moored boats ... in my racing dinghy ... and I know the owners of the moored boats!