Are flares an anachronism in today's world?

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Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

Looking at my steadily ageing stock of flares this morning, alongside one of my GPS EPIRBs, got me wondering whether carrying a full set of flares is sensible or cost-effective. Given that in the real world money and space are both limited on small yachts, would the money be better spent on one or two GPS EPIRBS (the prices would then tumble) and a small set of strategic flares to attract attention at close range and help S&R on their final approach.

What do people think - are the present recommended flares about right, could they be reduced by having EPIRBS, and if so, what would be the bare minimum flares to be carried for coastal and offshore?

Naturally there are rules and suggested flares and there may even be insurance implications if one unilaterally declared oneself a flare-reduced boat so I am not suggesting that anyone takes action on this..."don't do this at home, children" /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

It all depends who you expect to help you!
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

Five years ago I was involved in a rescue near the Nab Tower, at night.

The boat in question sank and her crew took to the liferaft. Eventhough we had the liferaft's position from Solent Coastguard, the final approach was made so much easier when the occupants of the liferaft set off a red flare.

By the way, If you ever have to manouver round a liferaft, beware of the drogue. Very lucky we didn't foul the prop.

Many,many years ago, again at night, I saw a red parachute go off, whilst looking out of the window from a flat in Dun Logaire. Called the CG and described what I'd seen and approximate angles etc. The GC replied "Thank you sir, your report gives us a triangulation and the lifeboat is going to be launched to go and have a look"

So, based on these experiences flares are vital.
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

As I suggested in the opening post, I think that a small strategic stock of flares is probably essential. As for the case years ago when you saw the flare, wouldn't the response have been far quicker and more accurate with a GPS EPIRB (and/or a DSC alarm or Mayday on Ch16)?

I am asking whether we still need to carry such a large stock of flares, with the accompanying danger and cost in money and space. Could the effort be better deployed?
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

Its a difficult one, i would say that a backup handheld gps and handheld VHF radio would be far more practical than a set of flares, and in almost any situation I can think of, id rather have the former than the latter, but with that said, there is no real situation where id have to choose, space is never THAT limited, especially for safety items. Id always rather go without a spare halyard/gas bottle/3tins of beans than flares.

So what Im saying is: Yes, I think spare tech equipment would be safer than a pack of flares, but what im also saying it, for the space and cost, its far wiser to have both.


Mat
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

I wonder why?
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

Why ???

Electronic is fine for bring stuff into general area where you are .... but flare / smoke etc. pinpoints you when searchers are looking ..

Problem is not whether to reduce flares - problem really is that there are not enough .. the rec'd number is a minimum in my book. That is why I say not to dump old ones ... unless visibly condition is suspect. That old flare may just be the last left you have and save your life.

Technology cannot replace the human eye when it comes to this subject ... IMHO of course.
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

Since the well publisised horific accident with flares, I'm wondering whether to replace mine at all. Think I'd rather drown than risk a backfiring flare.
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

Yes, but why does one need so many flares? Why not just enough to help rescuers on their final approach, and to attract very local attention say within a harbour or small estuary/anchorage? Two of you are saying that you need loads of flares and (effectively) that you can't carry enough. Why? What do people do with them all? Are they being let off early in an inappropriate manner? Or are they the real 'business' when it comes to alerting people of a distress? I imagine most members of the public would thing it's a wedding, or something, if they saw flares! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

Each of the flares has a purpose. The handhelds for close quarters, the parachutes for long range, the smokes for pinpointing your position from above. It seems to me that the further you go offshore and the remoter the places you are visiting then the more flares you carry. As other has posted inc me last time went round this particular buoy there is enough evidence to suggest that they have their place.

If you don't want to carry them or carry fewer then that's your affair but don't expect everyone to agree with you.
 
I think that you are being a bit unfair to joe public ...

Yes - I agree that many public would think a flare let off is a party offshore ... but a lot of coast people do realise what they are ... IMHO.

As to away from land ... etc. EVEN coastal ... Flres don't need battery's etc. Are completely self-powered etc. and will work in adverse conditions .......

Take a boat in real bad weather ... fine - the epirb or why is twittering away bringing help .... helicopter / lifeboat is homing in ........... a flare goes up ... bingo ......... ALL items are working together.

Tome can attest to this I am sure ... as we both have experience on Seismic vessels towing long cables ... You are on constant watch for wayward fishing boats / ships etc. You don't anybody crossing astern of you over the cable. So you have VHF ... give out warning messages etc. - but so many times you end up with white Very Flares fired from a Very Pistol ... to warn of vessels who have ignored all calls etc. It is amazing some reactions when that flare goes up ......

So despite modern technology .... despite good visibility ..... flares still do their job.
 
Re: I think that you are being a bit unfair to joe public ...

Good point about power failure, also who knows how long you could be drifting. I feel that tried and tested with a very long history out weighs the advances in technology, even when every one uses/understands the newer technolgies. Plus with all the info in the news about the two probes to scan the sun in 3D that highlights another potential difficulty with the electronic aids, solar flare activity can disrupt communications, and I would hate to have to rely upon an electronic device just when old sol decides to to let one rip!
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

I agree with you as far as the white hand-held flares are concerned.
I think that when practically every boat now has a high powered torch of 500,000 or even 1,000,000 candle power on board, white flares are an anachronism.
The light from such a torch, when shone onto the sails or at the bridge of a ship is far more effective.

ISAF rules still require 4 white hand held for Category 2 races. Apart from the boats on the professional circuit it is only the british boats that regularly keep them on board. Most of the boats registered elsewhere in europe and the rest of the world do not. I see this every year while inspecting the boats that take part in our Rolex Middle Sea Race.

One other thing which I think is silly is that while the ISAF rules require "2 orange smoke flares", they do NOT specify the type. Now I agree that a FLOATING smoke is very effective at pinpointing a position and indicating wind direction to approaching SAR; however, I sincerely believe that a HAND-HELD orange smoke does not last long anywhere near long enough to be effective.

Re the red parachutes, I would let them off IF I am still on the boat. I think that letting off rockets from a liferaft is close to madness!

The sensible way to go, IMO, is the GPIRB. At this time, ISAF is 'strongly recommending' that EPIRBS should be of the type that incorporate GPS. When the next rules are issued (2009) I would expect them to be a requirement. It is OK to say "But the electronics might die on you" but we all know that today's electronic gadgets are way more reliable than 10, even 5, years ago.
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

Hmmm...It wasn't being suggested that no flares would be required, simply questioning whether so many flares are needed today. After all, the downside to flares is cost, space and the inherent risk of storing explosives on board.

As for the flares requirement for ships and specialist seismic vessels, surely you are not suggesting that yachts should carry the same flares inventory as a ship or seismic vessel? The question being asked here is what flares should be carried by yachts, not all vessels.

In really foul weather flares are invisible unless you are right on top of them, anyway. A SART might be a better choice than a cockpit full of flares? Though I for one would never want to be without any flares - the quesion is how many, and what type?

I have been wondering about buying a pack of the little 'cigarillo' flares you can keep on your person, for use in the tender. Maybe useful in case of engine failure on the way back to the boat late in the evening. But not an official requirement, probably?
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

We carry flares and I would always carry them. However, in the event we run out of them we have a mastead white strobe and if we sink a powerful strobe in the grab bag. If you don't want flares a strobe would certainly be useful.
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

That's an interesting point. I think that the use of a strobe at sea other than in distress is illegal but (I stand to be corrected). In distress you may use any means at your disposal to attract attention. Nobody is going to have a go at you, in any case, if you use it in distress. My slight doubt about this is that presumably it would not be legal or acceptable to set off a one billion candle-power flash bomb, even in distress? To put it another way, despite the regs permitting any means to be used to attract attention, there must be a degree of implied 'reasonableness'.

I have heard that some people are now using xenon strobes as a basic anti-collision beacon (as in aircraft) in contravention of the law. Is that correct? I have seen flashing white LED all-round lights described as 'strobes' although I doubt whether 'strobe' is the right term for them?
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

I read the book by the French sailor that Pete Goss rescued in thes outhern ocean. GPS got Pete to within yards of the position of the liferaft but the seas made finding him impossible until the Aussys dropped flares/smoke around the raft. Seas etc a bit different but the principle the same. Not to sure either what my insurance would think about being light on flares.
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

Safety comes from layers of protection so that when one layer fails there is another to take its place.

A 406MHz EPIRB is a good long range device but needs to be pinpointed - so the dual ones with 121.6 do a good job when nearer,

The para flares do a good long range shout
The fired star flares do a good localisation in rougher weather
The hand helds refine the job when nearer and the smokes
help Helos judge the wind better from above.

The anticollision flares do a good job of bring attention to onesself in a close quarters situation

A searchlight can do a good job of localising to a helo. It can also destroy the pilots night vision when pointed direct at him/her

A lifejacket light does a good job from very nearby.

IMHO Its better to have many layers of defence than to just rely on one single device which is fragile.
 
Re: Are flares an anachronism in today\'s world?

> use of a strobe at sea other than in distress is illegal

Yes, that's right. However, I'd certainly switch on our masthead strobe if I thought a ship was about to run us down. Some friends used theirs and said "you've never seen a ship turn so fast".

> there must be a degree of implied 'reasonableness'.

I think it's using common sense really, there's no advantage in 'blinding' rescuers with bright lights but to attract attention use as bright as possible.

>some people are now using xenon strobes as a basic anti-collision beacon

Yes unfortunately they are - and it may well invalidate their insurance, indeed I hope it does.

> flashing white LED all-round lights described as 'strobes'

I've not used LED's but I'd assume that they can't give the power and range of a proper strobe - a 'normal' flashing light (e.g. nav aids) is certainly not a strobe.
 
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