Heckler
Active member
just got YM today, read the article on the deliberate scuttling, did you see the broken figlass shaft, what does it take to break something like that?
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ARC scuttling
- Thread starter Heckler
- Start date
Robin
Well-known member
A lot less than for a nice old fashioned solid stainless steel shaft!
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Peppermint
New member
Either poor manufacture or an undisclosed or remembered impact that causes initial cracking. Boats loose stainless hung rudders too.
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tony_brighton
New member
I see the manufacturer is conducting an analysis of the fracture - want to bet the answer is 'cracked due to impact'. One wonders whether a survey would have identified collateral damage associated with an impact that would cause such a failure (given that the boat was relatively new to the owners - must have had one). I was surprised to see that it was a fibre-glass stock and not stainless one such a large boat.
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jimi
Well-known member
I was a little surprised that they were unable to control the boat in some shape or fashion I must admit, and that `the loss whilst undoubtedly severe, proved to be so catastrophic?
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tr7v8
Active member
I'd expect a SS one to bend in an impact though, if it cracked would be down to a fatigue fracture.
I expect if GRP it wouldn't be pure glass, I'd have assumed some level of carbon or kevlar rovings to give much higher strength.
I am quite surprised that these high spec yachts suffer such levels of failure. Maybe the RCD scheme should address more of the scantlings issue so you don't end up with quite so many failures. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
Jim
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<hr width=100% size=1>Jim
Draco 2500
I expect if GRP it wouldn't be pure glass, I'd have assumed some level of carbon or kevlar rovings to give much higher strength.
I am quite surprised that these high spec yachts suffer such levels of failure. Maybe the RCD scheme should address more of the scantlings issue so you don't end up with quite so many failures. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif
Jim
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<hr width=100% size=1>Jim
Draco 2500
AndrewB
Well-known member
Inadequate rudder construction.
There was an interesting series in PBO some years ago by Tony Marchaj, following a whole series of rudder failures in production yachts, which, incidentally, were never reported openly in the UK yachting press due to legal constraints. Marchaj argued that the stresses on a rudder in open sea can easily be much higher than is allowed for in standard design.
My view is that Hunter/Legend yachts are neither designed nor suitable for deep sea cruising. That doesn't mean they can't, ultimately the crew are the key factor, but the risk of structural damage would be higher than necessary if extended adverse conditions were encountered. The inexperienced crew did not appreciate that. The whole tenor of their preparation centred on equipment; not with appropriate design, ensuring fundamental structural integrity, or making appropriate contingency planning. At least all that equipment meant they could call for help. The 'lessons learnt' in the article are telling.
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There was an interesting series in PBO some years ago by Tony Marchaj, following a whole series of rudder failures in production yachts, which, incidentally, were never reported openly in the UK yachting press due to legal constraints. Marchaj argued that the stresses on a rudder in open sea can easily be much higher than is allowed for in standard design.
My view is that Hunter/Legend yachts are neither designed nor suitable for deep sea cruising. That doesn't mean they can't, ultimately the crew are the key factor, but the risk of structural damage would be higher than necessary if extended adverse conditions were encountered. The inexperienced crew did not appreciate that. The whole tenor of their preparation centred on equipment; not with appropriate design, ensuring fundamental structural integrity, or making appropriate contingency planning. At least all that equipment meant they could call for help. The 'lessons learnt' in the article are telling.
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NigelW
New member
Whilst owning a Legend 43, and sailing in the 2002 ARC in a cat, I was very interested to find out how they 'lost ' the rudder, as was reported on the net. The normal Legend system includes a rudder that has a steel shaft and floats. Therefore it is neutrally bouyant when in its tube, which means that the ruder cannot 'fall out'.
I have taken my rudder out twice, both whilst the yacht was afloat and on land. A difficult process. Full marks to the Tenacious team for getting the replacement fitted in those swells. I don't think the photo in the article shows how rough it really was.
It would appear that the rudder has had a severe shock at some time, which should have been evidenced by damage to the rudder blade, otherwise the stock should not have broken. My steel one just bent! Hit on a submerged object, part of Alderney as I recall.
It was also a pity that they declined the offer of additional crew before leaving Las Palmas, as they had little experience with large yachts. I feel that with more hands it might have been easier to cope with a jury system.
A sad tale and a lesson to us all.
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I have taken my rudder out twice, both whilst the yacht was afloat and on land. A difficult process. Full marks to the Tenacious team for getting the replacement fitted in those swells. I don't think the photo in the article shows how rough it really was.
It would appear that the rudder has had a severe shock at some time, which should have been evidenced by damage to the rudder blade, otherwise the stock should not have broken. My steel one just bent! Hit on a submerged object, part of Alderney as I recall.
It was also a pity that they declined the offer of additional crew before leaving Las Palmas, as they had little experience with large yachts. I feel that with more hands it might have been easier to cope with a jury system.
A sad tale and a lesson to us all.
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Samphire
New member
Certainly a lot of pertinent points mentioned by various people,but to my mind
a cruising boat should have either a keel or skeg hung rudder,not only for extra strength but also for prptection from impact.
Another point raised is the suitability of these light displacement shallow fin designs
for this kind of cruising,not as was said because they cant do it ,we know they can,but because they lack the directional stability needed to steer with a jury steering system.All the gadgets in the world won't help if the basics are wrong.
As has been said in YM and elsewhere CE markings only lure the uninitiated into a false sense of security in their Cat A markings.
Samphire
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a cruising boat should have either a keel or skeg hung rudder,not only for extra strength but also for prptection from impact.
Another point raised is the suitability of these light displacement shallow fin designs
for this kind of cruising,not as was said because they cant do it ,we know they can,but because they lack the directional stability needed to steer with a jury steering system.All the gadgets in the world won't help if the basics are wrong.
As has been said in YM and elsewhere CE markings only lure the uninitiated into a false sense of security in their Cat A markings.
Samphire
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NigelW
New member
All seems to point to the benefits of a catamaran. 2 of everything, including long keels and rudders!
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Peppermint
New member
Re: I read somewhere
that Legends are built in very hot and humid conditions which dosn't always suit GRP work. I agree that Steel might give more warnings even quite complex laminates are either intact structures or a shattered mess.
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that Legends are built in very hot and humid conditions which dosn't always suit GRP work. I agree that Steel might give more warnings even quite complex laminates are either intact structures or a shattered mess.
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Peppermint
New member
Re: Bring back the Sweep Oar? nm
nm
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nm
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tr7v8
Active member
Re: I read somewhere
This tends to reinforce my thoughts that even quite high-tech boats are still in the knock together category. You'd expect something like a non-metallic rudder shaft, mast or whatever to be made in a clean, atmosphere controlled environment. And probably autoclaved to boot. I suspect this accounts for some of the quite sudden failures, often without any impact.
<hr width=100% size=1>Jim
Draco 2500
This tends to reinforce my thoughts that even quite high-tech boats are still in the knock together category. You'd expect something like a non-metallic rudder shaft, mast or whatever to be made in a clean, atmosphere controlled environment. And probably autoclaved to boot. I suspect this accounts for some of the quite sudden failures, often without any impact.
<hr width=100% size=1>Jim
Draco 2500
