anyone using the RYA's new YTC handicap system

[mrming]

On the subject of IRC boats entering RTI in the ISC class, I am pretty sure that for quite a few years now that has been ruled out in the NOR. Boats who have had a IRC cert can enter in the IRC class only.

I sold my last small, racy, well prepped and tuned (and IRC rated) boat to a club member who then entered into the white sail class in the club regatta the following year. He took his family out, including young children, and didn’t fly any spinnakers, but it was still like taking a gun to a knife fight. He won all the races convincingly which was rather awkward.

 

[Laysula]

I don't profess to know how the handicap system works, but to me it doesn't seem to work. I crew regularly on a friends boat and we race twice a week. We are almost always last. None of us are mugs, we all have many years experience sailing yachts. However the boat is a bit of a slug in that it is the skippers boat which he also cruises on and so carries a lot of excess weight and the sails are also shot. I don't understand why at small club level, we tend to have 10 to 15 boats out in each race, and it's the same boats at the front and the same boats at the back each time., Why is there not a handicap system like golf which is based purely on results?

 

[TLouth7]

I don't profess to know how the handicap system works, but to me it doesn't seem to work. I crew regularly on a friends boat and we race twice a week. We are almost always last. None of us are mugs, we all have many years experience sailing yachts. However the boat is a bit of a slug in that it is the skippers boat which he also cruises on and so carries a lot of excess weight and the sails are also shot. I don't understand why at small club level, we tend to have 10 to 15 boats out in each race, and it's the same boats at the front and the same boats at the back each time., Why is there not a handicap system like golf which is based purely on results?

NHC and similar handicapping systems should address this by adjusting your handicap after each race.

 

[Praxinoscope]

#22, the NHC did attempt to introduce a recalculation using results over a series, but hasn't really found extensive favour.
In a way, basing a handicap system upon results rather than on yacht specifications, would rely too heavily upon rating the crew, which could vary considerably and can not really be compared to golf which handicaps a single player not the clubs or balls they use.
In small club racing it's not unusual for very few of the competitors to have regular crews, some may have occasional crew, or at times resort to being single handed as no additional crew were available, whilst one or two boats do have a regular experienced crew, how to handicap for this would seem to open up the proverbial can of worms.
Rating the boat (not the crew) seems to be the only practical way of yacht race handicapping, the handicap should allow sufficient correction that theoretically if all competitors sail to an optimum, the handicap correction would result in them all finishing at the same time, (not crossing the line at the same time) but obviously this doesn't happen, the skipper may take a less efficient line to a mark, mis-judge a wind shift, have to give way, the crew may not act quickly enough on a going about or manage to twist the spinnaker just to mention a few of the ways that a competitor can lose time.
It would not be first time I have crossed the line last, yet after the corrections been placed as second or third, but on other occasions made too many mistakes to get placed any better than last.
If there was a perfect h/c system we would all be using it.

 

[flaming]

#22, the NHC did attempt to introduce a recalculation using results over a series, but hasn't really found extensive favour.
In a way, basing a handicap system upon results rather than on yacht specifications, would rely too heavily upon rating the crew, which could vary considerably and can not really be compared to golf which handicaps a single player not the clubs or balls they use.
In small club racing it's not unusual for very few of the competitors to have regular crews, some may have occasional crew, or at times resort to being single handed as no additional crew were available, whilst one or two boats do have a regular experienced crew, how to handicap for this would seem to open up the proverbial can of worms.
Rating the boat (not the crew) seems to be the only practical way of yacht race handicapping, the handicap should allow sufficient correction that theoretically if all competitors sail to an optimum, the handicap correction would result in them all finishing at the same time, (not crossing the line at the same time) but obviously this doesn't happen, the skipper may take a less efficient line to a mark, mis-judge a wind shift, have to give way, the crew may not act quickly enough on a going about or manage to twist the spinnaker just to mention a few of the ways that a competitor can lose time.
It would not be first time I have crossed the line last, yet after the corrections been placed as second or third, but on other occasions made too many mistakes to get placed any better than last.
If there was a perfect h/c system we would all be using it.

This is all true, however there is also a clear need for an "entry level" handicap that is both simple to administer and encourages people to try racing in their cruising boat.

 

[Mudisox]

I had the temerity to ask the question at a Race Management seminar some years ago " Why do clubs run racing?" Answers covered "to encourage folks onto the water", " Fill the bar", Test improve and reward skills".
IOR IRC all have their own parameters that are then used by designers/boat builders. All have their faults and more importantly costs of obtaining. YTC tries to solve the cost problem, but is and will be abused/used by some to get a result better than really rewards their skill.
Look at the results of the Fastnet with similar boats and ratings.

 

[Praxinoscope]

This is all true, however there is also a clear need for an "entry level" handicap that is both simple to administer and encourages people to try racing in their cruising boat.

PY did this, and so should YTC although personally I think PY offered a better entry as the OOD could calculate quickly a h/c for a boat new to the racing.
Over the years I remember various slower boats winning races against things like Fulmars, one race (our Patches race, approx 22 miles overall), where a Sea Witch took the cup under PY.

 

[B27]

People should make up their minds what they want from a 'handicap' system.

Is it to allow all boats an equal chance of winning?
Is it to allow different boats to race one another and the best sailed boat wins?
Does it rate e.g. all Sigma 33's the same, or do you get a handicap allowance for having old sails or a boat load of cruising luggage?
Should it reward people who choose a boat which suits the venue?

Is it a performance prediction system which aims to score the sailors' performance, or is it a 'rating' system which aims to also reward 'better' boat design, tuning and optimisation?

People moan about all of the systems, even 'One Design' is rarely really level because some boats will have newer sails or the saliors will be closer to optimum weight or whatever.

Having decided what you want from it, you then have a pretty difficult task of making work over a variety of conditions and courses.
Basically if the boats are not pretty similar, it never works very well.

In my view, the real objective is to get boats 'racing' on the water and the results thrown out by the handicap system are usually not the main thing.

 

[TLouth7]

Rating the boat (not the crew) seems to be the only practical way of yacht race handicapping

Given we don't all swap boats between races how can you possibly handicap individual boats without necessarily handicapping the crew?

Perhaps my perspective is skewed by the fact that my club does a lot of white sails racing, but we see very little difference in results between a given boat sailed singlehanded vs fully crewed; the majority of difference is down to the skipper. We are quite happy with our progressive handicapping system based on the Forth Yacht Clubs Association system, it seems to get people to the right handicaps. The only problem is that it falls down when you have fewer than about 5 boats on the start line, which is true for the majority of our races.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Given we don't all swap boats between races how can you possibly handicap individual boats without necessarily handicapping the crew?

Perhaps my perspective is skewed by the fact that my club does a lot of white sails racing, but we see very little difference in results between a given boat sailed singlehanded vs fully crewed; the majority of difference is down to the skipper. We are quite happy with our progressive handicapping system based on the Forth Yacht Clubs Association system, it seems to get people to the right handicaps. The only problem is that it falls down when you have fewer than about 5 boats on the start line, which is true for the majority of our races.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you, I sometimes race single handed, sometimes 2 up and on the odd occasion 3 up, the additional crew does make a difference, when tacking on a leg or rounding a mark, the additional crew permits far faster sail setting and often better balancing of the boat, than when single handed, which can make a substantial difference to the elapsed time. As skipper my tactics, reading of winds, wind shift, sail setting use of tidal flows will be the same if I am single handed or with a crew, but as suggested above tacking, sail adjustments etc. will be slower.
My boat is the constant therefore sensible to handicap, and simple to re-calculate if I change sail dimensions or fit a folding prop, my crew constantly varies, occaisionally single handed, sometimes with experienced crew, and at times including complete 'newbies', developing a workable crew handicap system would I think defeat even the most advanced mathematical concept.
It does sound as if our race fleets are of similar sizes, it is only the annual longer races and of course our regatta where we expect to see the number of competitors moving into double figures.

 

[Birdseye]

My point is #4 was to question why Birdseye was surprised by the closer result under NHC, since that is what the system is specifically designed to do... Adjust the handicaps based on past results to make the corrected results closer. I don't think it is necessarily indicative of "fairer" racing, but it seems like NHC was doing the job it was designed to do...

The points about closer results are two fold. Closer results mean more exciting racing and closer results encourage more effort to get better.

 

[Birdseye]

We are quite happy with our progressive handicapping system based on the Forth Yacht Clubs Association system, it seems to get people to the right handicaps. The only problem is that it falls down when you have fewer than about 5 boats on the start line, which is true for the majority of our races.

There is a bit of a contracdiction in the above!

Not long ago the fleet included a Reflex with a handicap of 1.17 and a bilgie with a handicap of 0.806. In strong tidal waters like our there is no handicap possible that will match these two boats fairly at all wind speeds. The best you can ever hope for is a system that gives close results on average after correction and something to argue about in the bar afterwards. If we didnt have handicap as the excuse we might have to fall back on crew incompetence and even ( very rarely) a skippers mistake.