Anyone using A Wifi Bat?
- Thread starter Carmel2
- Start date
VicMallows
Well-Known Member
Incredibly expensive for a USB WiFi antenna/adapter, even if well made. I suggest first playing with one of the various 'high-power' adapters available on ebay at around £15 (such as 'ALPHA'). USB is really limited to several meters unless you use powered repeaters.
If you want to get the antenna up higher, a better bet may be an adapter with an ethernet output which does not have the same length constraints. There was a regular ebay seller (around £60) but he currently seems to have disappeared.
If you want to get the antenna up higher, a better bet may be an adapter with an ethernet output which does not have the same length constraints. There was a regular ebay seller (around £60) but he currently seems to have disappeared.
Annabell
New Member
Got my wifi-boost-antenna from radiolabs sent to Lanzarote last December and paid incl. post and package ~ 200 Euros. It is the
WaveRvMarineXL-Wireless Marine. Works good. Have a look to the internet www.radiolabs.com
BR
Klaus
WaveRvMarineXL-Wireless Marine. Works good. Have a look to the internet www.radiolabs.com
BR
Klaus
Ariadne
Well-Known Member
Get the Alpha, a very, very good bit of kit, we use them all the time.
They also do an outdoor aerial (like the old broom stick VHF ones) you can leave outside attached to the riging or on the spreaders. I had a good look at it and it all water tight connections and a good boost as well.
Went back told the Mrs, then forgot about and sailed without buying it!
They also do an outdoor aerial (like the old broom stick VHF ones) you can leave outside attached to the riging or on the spreaders. I had a good look at it and it all water tight connections and a good boost as well.
Went back told the Mrs, then forgot about and sailed without buying it!
phantomlady
Well-Known Member
Agree about the Alpha. We just put a plastic bag over ours and hang it outside.
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little_roundtop
Well-Known Member
These guys http://wifi-link.com/ have everything you'll ever need.
MBullock
Active Member
Wave wifi
We've recently fitted one of these http://www.wavewifi.com/rogue-wave.html I've put it on a bracket outside and used self amalgamating tape to try and seal it up. Main benefit is that it's Ethernet not USB connected.
We've recently fitted one of these http://www.wavewifi.com/rogue-wave.html I've put it on a bracket outside and used self amalgamating tape to try and seal it up. Main benefit is that it's Ethernet not USB connected.
MailASail
Well-Known Member
Disclaimer: I'm the manufacturer of the Wifi Bat !
MailASail also sell the Alfa high power devices and have done so for some years now. They are excellent and work very well. So why have we introduced the Wifi Bat and what justifies the price difference?
Well, we wanted to retail something that was suitable for permanent external mounting and after looking at the other devices on the market we didn't find anything we liked for an appropriate budget, so we built our own...
Performance has exceeded our expectation and we now get regular reports of customers easily achieving multiple mile range to decent hotspots. For example we have one customer with a Wifi Bat on his caravan as the main internet access, connecting to a BT Openzone connection at a hotel slightly over 10 miles away.
With regards to pricing, it's tricky, but basically the difference between mass market (Alfa) and one off, marinised, custom (Wifi Bat) unfortunately makes the difference in price. For example we wanted a marine wifi antenna and a quick search shows they range in price from £20 to £400 (eek). We bought a bunch of the less expensive devices to research them and in many cases you get exactly what you pay for ... And clearly you the customer don't want to pay for a super expensive antenna... So getting the bill of materials sensible is quite challenging...
Note also that the Wifi Bat is significantly more powerful than say the Digital Yacht WL500 which is priced around the £500+vat mark... (Actually, at 2W we are probably one of the most powerful devices on the market)
I previously posted a discount code for YBW forum members, but it caused a complaint and the post was deleted. I would like to offer forum readers a discount, but not sure how to go about that, and definitely don't want to annoy anyone... Suggestions welcome (or you can tell me that it's unwelcome!)
Just a bit of background, but because we built it, the individual parts were chosen with some thought:
- Radio - 2W Ralink. This is the newer chipset than in most of the popular Alfa cards. Many of the Alfa cards use the Realtek chipset and in particular Mac compatibility is a bit hit and miss there.
- Antenna - we used a *less sensitive* than normal 8dB antenna! Lots of manufacturers use 12dB+ antennas and these have only a 1-2 degree effective angle of transmit (wow!). This is glossed over, but can you really keep your antenna aligned 1-2 degrees from vertical on a boat?
- Connection: 10m/20m USB. USB is theoretically limited to 5m cable lengths, but recently we have been able to obtain 10m lengths and you can daisy chain 4 of these for 40m of cable run.
The benefit of USB is that for *1* computer you get really tight integration with Windows/Mac and all the usual automatic connecting to networks, etc. For *multiple* computer access we make a wireless router called the "Red Box", which can then have tight integration because of the USB connection. Ethernet looks more attractive in theory, but you loose that tight integration into the operating system... Although possibly not relevant for everyone, the Red Box has given us a product that can integrate Wifi, 3G data cards (and satellite phones) into a single router, where the router understands how to control the individual devices.
Hopefully that gives you some background on why the individual pieces were chosen.
It's been quite an interesting experience researching this device (anyone want to buy a load of antennas and radio cards that proved not to work very well?). Roughly the secret for good wifi performance seems to be to get good line of sight, higher than standard output power, *not* too sensitive antenna, a sensitive *receive* radio card and *minimal* antenna cable between radio card and antenna. In particular external amplifiers and additional antenna cable seem hit and miss as to whether they can work well, certainly very careful matching is needed...
Happy to take questions if anyone wants to know specific tips about wifi generally (for any wifi product)?
MailASail also sell the Alfa high power devices and have done so for some years now. They are excellent and work very well. So why have we introduced the Wifi Bat and what justifies the price difference?
Well, we wanted to retail something that was suitable for permanent external mounting and after looking at the other devices on the market we didn't find anything we liked for an appropriate budget, so we built our own...
Performance has exceeded our expectation and we now get regular reports of customers easily achieving multiple mile range to decent hotspots. For example we have one customer with a Wifi Bat on his caravan as the main internet access, connecting to a BT Openzone connection at a hotel slightly over 10 miles away.
With regards to pricing, it's tricky, but basically the difference between mass market (Alfa) and one off, marinised, custom (Wifi Bat) unfortunately makes the difference in price. For example we wanted a marine wifi antenna and a quick search shows they range in price from £20 to £400 (eek). We bought a bunch of the less expensive devices to research them and in many cases you get exactly what you pay for ... And clearly you the customer don't want to pay for a super expensive antenna... So getting the bill of materials sensible is quite challenging...
Note also that the Wifi Bat is significantly more powerful than say the Digital Yacht WL500 which is priced around the £500+vat mark... (Actually, at 2W we are probably one of the most powerful devices on the market)
I previously posted a discount code for YBW forum members, but it caused a complaint and the post was deleted. I would like to offer forum readers a discount, but not sure how to go about that, and definitely don't want to annoy anyone... Suggestions welcome (or you can tell me that it's unwelcome!)
Just a bit of background, but because we built it, the individual parts were chosen with some thought:
- Radio - 2W Ralink. This is the newer chipset than in most of the popular Alfa cards. Many of the Alfa cards use the Realtek chipset and in particular Mac compatibility is a bit hit and miss there.
- Antenna - we used a *less sensitive* than normal 8dB antenna! Lots of manufacturers use 12dB+ antennas and these have only a 1-2 degree effective angle of transmit (wow!). This is glossed over, but can you really keep your antenna aligned 1-2 degrees from vertical on a boat?
- Connection: 10m/20m USB. USB is theoretically limited to 5m cable lengths, but recently we have been able to obtain 10m lengths and you can daisy chain 4 of these for 40m of cable run.
The benefit of USB is that for *1* computer you get really tight integration with Windows/Mac and all the usual automatic connecting to networks, etc. For *multiple* computer access we make a wireless router called the "Red Box", which can then have tight integration because of the USB connection. Ethernet looks more attractive in theory, but you loose that tight integration into the operating system... Although possibly not relevant for everyone, the Red Box has given us a product that can integrate Wifi, 3G data cards (and satellite phones) into a single router, where the router understands how to control the individual devices.
Hopefully that gives you some background on why the individual pieces were chosen.
It's been quite an interesting experience researching this device (anyone want to buy a load of antennas and radio cards that proved not to work very well?). Roughly the secret for good wifi performance seems to be to get good line of sight, higher than standard output power, *not* too sensitive antenna, a sensitive *receive* radio card and *minimal* antenna cable between radio card and antenna. In particular external amplifiers and additional antenna cable seem hit and miss as to whether they can work well, certainly very careful matching is needed...
Happy to take questions if anyone wants to know specific tips about wifi generally (for any wifi product)?
MailASail
Well-Known Member
Oh, I also just received a copy of May 2012 Sailing Today and they have a full A4 page review of the Wifi Bat on page 24. I think Duncan likes it!
I believe you can get an electronic PDF/ebook copy of Sailing Today for less money than buying from a shop..?
I believe you can get an electronic PDF/ebook copy of Sailing Today for less money than buying from a shop..?
Ariadne
Well-Known Member
Cheers Ed, cleared a few things up.
The forum police will get angry about any sort of commercial advertising, although why they would want to remove anything that benifits users is a bit odd!
There have some pretty blatant posts advertising stuff in threads that seem to stay though.....
The forum police will get angry about any sort of commercial advertising, although why they would want to remove anything that benifits users is a bit odd!
There have some pretty blatant posts advertising stuff in threads that seem to stay though.....
VicMallows
Well-Known Member
Thanks. A very well presented contribution on the subject. I can't see why anyone should object on grounds of forum etiquette.
MBullock
Active Member
The Realtec NIC is used in most laptops and wireless devices, USB really isn't designed for long cable runs, and connecting cable on a yacht isn't a great idea (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Ethernet and comparison to Ethernet PoE), totally agree about not wanting directional bias on antenna's. comments around USB 'integrating' with PC/MAC is plain 'vague' and Ethernet is an equally good standard. Ethernet can be plugged into 'any' device with an ethernet port, and an onboard WIFI zone created using any old cheapo WiFi router.
The Bat thing seems well priced but by no means the only game in town. As always the kit from stateside if probably better priced and quality.
The Bat thing seems well priced but by no means the only game in town. As always the kit from stateside if probably better priced and quality.
MailASail
Well-Known Member
What was that "Alfa Antenna" that you referenced?
The thing to watch with adding any antenna cable with wifi is that it needs to be *substantial*. And by "substantial", you know your thick chunky Iridium antenna cable that everyone moans is vastly too thick to run...? Well you need to go up a size from there... Wifi is 2.4Ghz, so grab the LMR specs on say LMR400, add on the effects of the connectors and you are quickly into say 3-5dB loss for a short run. So your 8dB antenna just gave back say 3-5dB, meaning it's really a 3-5dB antenna...
You can add an amplifier to help overcome the effect in the direction from your laptop to the antenna, but you can't amplify the received signal because it's already too weak, so you are just amplifying noise. And unfortunately it's *always* the receive signal which is your limitation for range
Now, that's assuming you use 1/3 inch thick LMR400 (which is going to cost you perhaps £100 in cable...). Now, lets assume that your antenna costs less than this, then common sense suggests that it hasn't got silly expensive LMR on it! So assuming it's some thin RG cable, then you could easily have 5-20dB losses over a reasonable length cable to get the antenna outside... And yes, that probably means you have gone negative compared with just using the laptop wifi card!
The Alfa cards are super as you say. Some velcro on the back of them and you can mount them temporarily around the boat. Easy to move them around. However, we notice a fairly decent uptick in performance if you get the antenna just a bit higher so that it's away from the boat and any metal. So don't go silly high, just a meter or so up from the bimini/dog-house, basically so that you aren't punching through all the other boats.
However, I'm a big fan of getting things permanently mounted and then you seem to use them a lot more... There is some couple in the states who take plastic boxes and mount the Alfa cards into them. Looks a bit funky (they do them in fancy colours to make it deliberate), but I should think they work ok. Quite a few folks here are into DIY, so no harm in emulating that. Do buy more than one wireless card and don't be sad if they fail after a while (they are fairly cheap), just swap them out as you get problems. You can get 10/20m USB cables from us (they aren't easy to get in most shops yet?)
Note, we are getting a decent uptick in performance from the Wifi Bat over the silver Alfa cards (Realtek based ones). I'm attributing this to the slightly more sensitive Ralink wifi radios. If anyone wants to compare it would be possible to supply both and you can keep the one you prefer...
What kind of empirical ranges do readers here with Alfa cards tend to get? We had lots of happy users, but I don't recall anyone ever emailing us with an interesting story about distance? Clearly the wifi access point you are connecting to will *vastly* define the kind of range you will get, but does anyone have any data points to chip in?
The thing to watch with adding any antenna cable with wifi is that it needs to be *substantial*. And by "substantial", you know your thick chunky Iridium antenna cable that everyone moans is vastly too thick to run...? Well you need to go up a size from there... Wifi is 2.4Ghz, so grab the LMR specs on say LMR400, add on the effects of the connectors and you are quickly into say 3-5dB loss for a short run. So your 8dB antenna just gave back say 3-5dB, meaning it's really a 3-5dB antenna...
You can add an amplifier to help overcome the effect in the direction from your laptop to the antenna, but you can't amplify the received signal because it's already too weak, so you are just amplifying noise. And unfortunately it's *always* the receive signal which is your limitation for range
Now, that's assuming you use 1/3 inch thick LMR400 (which is going to cost you perhaps £100 in cable...). Now, lets assume that your antenna costs less than this, then common sense suggests that it hasn't got silly expensive LMR on it! So assuming it's some thin RG cable, then you could easily have 5-20dB losses over a reasonable length cable to get the antenna outside... And yes, that probably means you have gone negative compared with just using the laptop wifi card!
The Alfa cards are super as you say. Some velcro on the back of them and you can mount them temporarily around the boat. Easy to move them around. However, we notice a fairly decent uptick in performance if you get the antenna just a bit higher so that it's away from the boat and any metal. So don't go silly high, just a meter or so up from the bimini/dog-house, basically so that you aren't punching through all the other boats.
However, I'm a big fan of getting things permanently mounted and then you seem to use them a lot more... There is some couple in the states who take plastic boxes and mount the Alfa cards into them. Looks a bit funky (they do them in fancy colours to make it deliberate), but I should think they work ok. Quite a few folks here are into DIY, so no harm in emulating that. Do buy more than one wireless card and don't be sad if they fail after a while (they are fairly cheap), just swap them out as you get problems. You can get 10/20m USB cables from us (they aren't easy to get in most shops yet?)
Note, we are getting a decent uptick in performance from the Wifi Bat over the silver Alfa cards (Realtek based ones). I'm attributing this to the slightly more sensitive Ralink wifi radios. If anyone wants to compare it would be possible to supply both and you can keep the one you prefer...
What kind of empirical ranges do readers here with Alfa cards tend to get? We had lots of happy users, but I don't recall anyone ever emailing us with an interesting story about distance? Clearly the wifi access point you are connecting to will *vastly* define the kind of range you will get, but does anyone have any data points to chip in?
VicMallows
Well-Known Member
Consistently about 1/4mile with a flat-plate antenna on deck to 'BT Homehub' type sites. Typically 1mile to commercial hotspots. MUCH further, if I can be bothered, with a 13element YAGI on a pole .... but only if I am ashore or dried out so not moving. Agree, loss in coax is really critical at the frequency.
MailASail
Well-Known Member
I think I may have phrased something badly in my post because we seem to be talking past each other here. Please give me the benefit of the doubt?
I wasn't quite sure in what context you highlight the Realtec NIC brand? If you are referring to my mention of Ralink/Realtek, note that this is the *wireless* part, not the cabled ethernet part? I think what you might mean is that they both make internal cards for laptops? If so note that the internal card chipsets are often different to the USB cards? In particular the very popular (pre N) Realtek part used in the most famous Alfa cards seems to have lost driver updates for some time now and this particularly shows with Mac where support stopped at 10.5 and it needs some fiddling to support 10.6/10.7
With regards to USB - Ethernet has definitely got some advantages for long runs, but don't forget price. You need POE injectors and usually a more expensive radio card. USB has plenty of faults, but now that there are working 10m cables, I think for the yachts people are on here, 10-40m cable lengths cover an acceptable cabling length? (Ethernet can go to 100m)
Sorry, let me rephrase.
On Windows, most users are familiar with going from say home to work and the computer just switches wifi networks automatically. In fact it remembers all the networks you have ever visited and just switches between them automatically. Likewise when you go somewhere new, you just click the wifi icon by the clock, it lists all the wifi networks around you, click a new one, enter the password and off you go.
If you add a USB network card, then it gains access to all the same login credentials as the internal wifi card. So say you visited the internet cafe with your laptop and login. If you then go back to the boat and plugin a high power USB Alfa card (or 'Bat), then Windows will just use either card and login automatically (assuming its within range)
If you use an ethernet based system, then it's slightly different. Usually there is a web page you must visit to control the wireless device. So your usage is to bring up a browser, click probably the bookmarked admin page, login to that admin page, then control the wireless device via web pages. The big weakness I have seen on all the devices I tried was that none had implemented a "remember this network" feature... Even the market leading YachtSpot doesn't seem to offer this? It should be easy to add, so surely SOME device offers it, but it does seem missing from most of them
The upshot is that you end up needing to enter your password every time you change wifi hotspots on most of these ethernet devices, and also you need to visit a web page to do so.
That is what I meant by the "tighter integration" with windows of the USB devices.
I think a quick google search will turn up the well known products, so apologies if I implied otherwise.
Also, I did a quick scan on google for the Rogue Wave that you mentioned and it seemed to average around $450, which seems not so vastly different to a Wifi Bat? I would expect such a comment to enlist you to tell me it's a bunch cheaper from some vendors, which is great (please do!), but at least the headline prices seem similar? (Google has a tendency to show different users different results, so assume you are probably getting something different to me!). Do also be careful to compare with/without sales tax since things are often quoted differently?
The Rogue Wave seems like a nice device (I haven't tried one yet though). However, note that whilst power isn't everything, it's an 0.8W device, versus 2W for the Wifi Bat. I'm not sure that there is anything that obviously points towards one being of significantly different quality though?
MailASail
Well-Known Member
Hmm, interesting, thanks for sharing. 1/4mile to crummy home hotspots is quite excellent actually? It's always going to be the far end which is the limiting factor, most of those type of devices struggle to broadcast to the end of the garden...
Do you use "Fon"? One of our customers brought this to my attention and basically for around £40 including postage you can join the Fon network, and that appears to give you access to every BT Openzone hotspot, plus a load more networks (plus lots more big names around Europe). I bought one myself to get a login, but I haven't particularly tested it widely...
(Again repeating hearsay, but I hear that "Hot hot hotspot" is the best regarded equivalent for the Caribbean, however, I have had at least one customer report variable results on some islands?)
Yeah, but you probably get 15-25dB gain on a nice Yagi! Just that you need to point it accurately!
Repeat-It make an interesting device which gets good results using a flat panel antenna. This is a highly directional type of antenna with almost as good performance as your yagi, but it seems a pain to have to point the thing every time you want to use it?
Thanks for sharing!
yesod
Well-Known Member
which licence (or exemption) are you using for that then?
VicMallows
Well-Known Member
Wondered how long it would take for that to come up
Now we can start discussing how the power is defined 
yesod
Well-Known Member
Wondered how long it would take for that to come up
easy for the manufacturer to tell us what licence the device meets. either they've got something different, or it meets the exempt 100mw eirp (in which case, why buy it over any other comparable product).
MBullock
Active Member
exactly - easy to use numbers and stats to make an vague point. I don't know about licensing but I do know IT - most of the comments I could take issue with. But I'm bailing out - I'm sure his device is great. Personally, I wanted an Ethernet based device not USB. They work totally differently. nuff said...
