Danvilletim
Member
We are looking at a 75 HT in France on Monday and wanted see if anyone had experience on build quality or ride?
Anyone have experience with Cayman Yachts?
- Thread starter Danvilletim
- Start date
MapisM
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid that my short answer to your question is no.
But you will struggle to find anyone else with a specific experience on the 75 HT, because I don't think you need all the fingers of one hand to count how many of them were built.
Otoh, the yard did have a good reputation for building solid and seaworthy boats, generally speaking.
I've only seen one of their 58 HT in flesh, and while imho her build quality wasn't as impressive as some boating mates seem to think, she was definitely above average.
As I recall, their larger boats were powered either by MAN V12 or CAT C32, and at that size I'd definitely prefer the latter.
Either ways, if you dig into the engine displays you can check the total fuel burnt, which when compared to the total hours gives you an interesting insight on how the boat was used (though just on average, obviously).
Have a nice viewing, and don't forget that the moment you post here about a boat you are considering, you assume the obligation to post your impressions and some pics!
PS: coming to think of it, I believe that Poweryachtblog of this parish had a chance to seatrial a Cayman, albeit smaller than the 75, IIRC.
If he wouldn't see this thread, maybe you could drop him a pm him to get his view...
But you will struggle to find anyone else with a specific experience on the 75 HT, because I don't think you need all the fingers of one hand to count how many of them were built.
Otoh, the yard did have a good reputation for building solid and seaworthy boats, generally speaking.
I've only seen one of their 58 HT in flesh, and while imho her build quality wasn't as impressive as some boating mates seem to think, she was definitely above average.
As I recall, their larger boats were powered either by MAN V12 or CAT C32, and at that size I'd definitely prefer the latter.
Either ways, if you dig into the engine displays you can check the total fuel burnt, which when compared to the total hours gives you an interesting insight on how the boat was used (though just on average, obviously).
Have a nice viewing, and don't forget that the moment you post here about a boat you are considering, you assume the obligation to post your impressions and some pics!
PS: coming to think of it, I believe that Poweryachtblog of this parish had a chance to seatrial a Cayman, albeit smaller than the 75, IIRC.
If he wouldn't see this thread, maybe you could drop him a pm him to get his view...
Portofino
Well-Known Member
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2010/Cayman-75-HT-2933722/St-Mandrier/France#.WqTpIMrTWhA
Examine the gel coat carefully ,black and Med sun not the best combination and find some reassurance about these issues below
I know you guys love wearing CAT baseball hats ,
- but there are issues with the charge air coolers
Even on the 32 .
They are made of dissimilar metals and thus rely on anodic Protection of Zinc
- depending on install relative drain height s etc they can drain down beliw the zinc ( which needs eventually replacing @ service btw ) if this happens the drain down then they are no longer protected .
- CAT have had manufacturing problems - cracked / splitting going on - on top of the corrosion, the current service regime is “life them “ for only 6 years - yup just replace the Charge Air Coolers .
As a leak is waiting to happen
With MAN the engines are directly bonded to a hull anode and suffer none of this( metals are all the same not dissimilar) the CAC,s are lifed for the engine and just need period strip and clean ,like any other engine ,they don,t catastrophically leak seawater into the engine = bang
So the Q is will your CAT boat be running regularly or sat with the CACs drained out and unprotected ,leaking seawater ready to be sucked in next time somebody turns the key ! ?
https://forums.cat.com/t5/Cat-Products/C32-Aftercooler-Failures/td-p/3630
https://forums.cat.com/t5/Engine-Ro...ds-have-Cracks-between-Valve-seats/td-p/72727
There’s a deadrise pic on one of the multiple listings it’s NOT impressive looks low .
https://imgur.com/a/p5Cc5
Have fun .
What about a AB somthing or other ,or an Itama 75 - ( MTU 1812 Hp V12 ,s ) or simple Sunseeker Pred something or other ? These boats blend in the Cote d Azur l
What happened to the Managusta / Arno Leopard 84 search - MAN powered ?
Let’s us know what you think ,hope you are gonna go out in it and it’s choppy to sea if you are happy with the low deadrise .
Examine the gel coat carefully ,black and Med sun not the best combination and find some reassurance about these issues below
I know you guys love wearing CAT baseball hats ,
- but there are issues with the charge air coolers Even on the 32 .
They are made of dissimilar metals and thus rely on anodic Protection of Zinc
- depending on install relative drain height s etc they can drain down beliw the zinc ( which needs eventually replacing @ service btw ) if this happens the drain down then they are no longer protected .
- CAT have had manufacturing problems - cracked / splitting going on - on top of the corrosion, the current service regime is “life them “ for only 6 years - yup just replace the Charge Air Coolers .
As a leak is waiting to happen
With MAN the engines are directly bonded to a hull anode and suffer none of this( metals are all the same not dissimilar) the CAC,s are lifed for the engine and just need period strip and clean ,like any other engine ,they don,t catastrophically leak seawater into the engine = bang
So the Q is will your CAT boat be running regularly or sat with the CACs drained out and unprotected ,leaking seawater ready to be sucked in next time somebody turns the key ! ?
https://forums.cat.com/t5/Cat-Products/C32-Aftercooler-Failures/td-p/3630
https://forums.cat.com/t5/Engine-Ro...ds-have-Cracks-between-Valve-seats/td-p/72727
There’s a deadrise pic on one of the multiple listings it’s NOT impressive looks low .
https://imgur.com/a/p5Cc5
Have fun .
What about a AB somthing or other ,or an Itama 75 - ( MTU 1812 Hp V12 ,s ) or simple Sunseeker Pred something or other ? These boats blend in the Cote d Azur l
What happened to the Managusta / Arno Leopard 84 search - MAN powered ?
Let’s us know what you think ,hope you are gonna go out in it and it’s choppy to sea if you are happy with the low deadrise .
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Portofino
Well-Known Member
Page 18
AB 78 ——- wait for it. 24 degrees deadrise
http://www.gpyachts.it/gpyachts/admin/file/original/072014/1404386335CatalogoAB58_68_78.pdf
AB 78 ——- wait for it
. 24 degrees deadrise http://www.gpyachts.it/gpyachts/admin/file/original/072014/1404386335CatalogoAB58_68_78.pdf
Danvilletim
Member
Thanks for the feedback. I've been doing a lot of thinking on having a boat that needs crew and charter it o just go smaller. I haven't figured out the answer yet. We got close to buying a 100' boat in Ft Lauderdale last month and decided we need to look in Eu one last time. So today we look at
- 75 Cayman Budget friendly and manageable. And us Americans love ou CATS ( and good for resale when back in us)
- 90 Canados - 40+ knots... just wondering how much more room there is than 82 predator.
Then diving to Barecelona to see
-27m Maiora. That might be my favorite based on the pictures
-86 Aicon
Then back to Antibes to see a 82 predator
Honestly ther is a lot less inventory to look at compared to last couple years, but I didn't get around to selling my company til now. I'll do my best to share.
- 75 Cayman Budget friendly and manageable. And us Americans love ou CATS ( and good for resale when back in us)
- 90 Canados - 40+ knots... just wondering how much more room there is than 82 predator.
Then diving to Barecelona to see
-27m Maiora. That might be my favorite based on the pictures
-86 Aicon
Then back to Antibes to see a 82 predator
Honestly ther is a lot less inventory to look at compared to last couple years, but I didn't get around to selling my company til now. I'll do my best to share.
Portofino
Well-Known Member
I would try and keep it just below the “imaginary “24 M L for self driving sans skipper .
Only you know the answer to that conundrum.
The Canados 90: looks a stunner btw if that falls into the self drive rules ?
Anyways good luck with today and the trip to Barca , you can fly across as well or arrange to dump the hire car at one end ?
I guess its which is best presented / preserved / maintained .
In the Cannes area ( my bias kicking in) - you may get a lot of charter in the season for day trips and long WE from the various Hotel s on the Crosette for an Itama 75 to run to St Tropez or even to the Lerins , and various events in Monaco .
Just a thought tuning the boat into the client base .
Only you know the answer to that conundrum.
The Canados 90: looks a stunner btw if that falls into the self drive rules ?
Anyways good luck with today and the trip to Barca , you can fly across as well or arrange to dump the hire car at one end ?
I guess its which is best presented / preserved / maintained .
In the Cannes area ( my bias kicking in
) - you may get a lot of charter in the season for day trips and long WE from the various Hotel s on the Crosette for an Itama 75 to run to St Tropez or even to the Lerins , and various events in Monaco .Just a thought tuning the boat into the client base .
Danvilletim
Member
Yes I love Cannes for charter. I just took a jog down to the convention center and there must be 50 yachts getting decked out to host parties tonight. The funny part is they are all decked out with Tents on the fly bridge in case it rains
PowerYachtBlog
Well-Known Member
I skippered and sold a Cayman 58 WA HT for a client of myn, and sold a 43.
Cayman are well build (a bit traditional) and take the sea like few other boats can. With the 58 I went down from Rome to Malta, and then a year later I did the Malta Eolian islands round up.
In that trip I encountered a Force six to seven (wind) with three to four meter waves in the Ionian twenty mile trip and the boat kept on going at it at around 18 knots with no problems and rather comfortable.
I had the sea on the nose.
What was interesting that a couple bigger more popular boats came in a day later and had repairs to, and they came from a following sea. The only thing I lost was a fender on that day.
Four Cayman 75 where build as far as I know. I inspected the one in Spezia a year and half ago. The 75 I know off all had Cats 1657hp.
Cayman hulls are usually deep Vee of 20 degrees (58 and 52 models) hull to a medium Vee of 18 degrees (43). The Cayman 75 is also a 20.
As for build quality goes, each electrician I had on the 58 said how good it was, while furniture is all subject to who made it.
As an example all the 58 (six) I visited had different interiors.
The owner of the Cayman 43 who is a multi boat owner (bigger and smaller) considers it the best build and riding boat he ever had.
Here is the new model of the Cayman 75 I did back in 2008 when it launched.
http://www.poweryachtblog.com/2008/10/new-model-cayman-75-ht.html
Cayman are well build (a bit traditional) and take the sea like few other boats can. With the 58 I went down from Rome to Malta, and then a year later I did the Malta Eolian islands round up.
In that trip I encountered a Force six to seven (wind) with three to four meter waves in the Ionian twenty mile trip and the boat kept on going at it at around 18 knots with no problems and rather comfortable.
I had the sea on the nose.
What was interesting that a couple bigger more popular boats came in a day later and had repairs to, and they came from a following sea. The only thing I lost was a fender on that day.
Four Cayman 75 where build as far as I know. I inspected the one in Spezia a year and half ago. The 75 I know off all had Cats 1657hp.
Cayman hulls are usually deep Vee of 20 degrees (58 and 52 models) hull to a medium Vee of 18 degrees (43). The Cayman 75 is also a 20.
As for build quality goes, each electrician I had on the 58 said how good it was, while furniture is all subject to who made it.
As an example all the 58 (six) I visited had different interiors.
The owner of the Cayman 43 who is a multi boat owner (bigger and smaller) considers it the best build and riding boat he ever had.
Here is the new model of the Cayman 75 I did back in 2008 when it launched.
http://www.poweryachtblog.com/2008/10/new-model-cayman-75-ht.html
Danvilletim
Member
We took a quick sea trial on the cayman. The boat is incredibly well kitted out with electronics, joystick steering, etc. The interrior is pristine and well laid out. Loved the hi Lo swimplatform. The mini flybridge wasn't very useful. A nice optional sun pad, but not a comfortable driving station. The light wood make is very modern. The overall space is noticeably smaller than an 82 predator, but the outside space was more useable.
The tender was lacking at less that 3 meters it could only carry 4-5 people. So multiptrips would be needed. The crew space was accessed by hidden stairs and quite remarkable.
The black/charcoal paint was starting to have cracks appear on the forward bulwarks and certainly on tender garage door. I guess what you migh expect for 8 year old paint when you choose black.
Is it the paint or underplaying gel coat the causes actual cracks? Perhaps touch up spray can get through a couple years as most of the other areas are serviceable w good shine.
Overall loved the boat. Too small to charter and a little tight for 3-4 weeks at a time with crew. But these are very first world problems.
The tender was lacking at less that 3 meters it could only carry 4-5 people. So multiptrips would be needed. The crew space was accessed by hidden stairs and quite remarkable.
The black/charcoal paint was starting to have cracks appear on the forward bulwarks and certainly on tender garage door. I guess what you migh expect for 8 year old paint when you choose black.
Is it the paint or underplaying gel coat the causes actual cracks? Perhaps touch up spray can get through a couple years as most of the other areas are serviceable w good shine.
Overall loved the boat. Too small to charter and a little tight for 3-4 weeks at a time with crew. But these are very first world problems.
jfm
Well-Known Member
Sounds nice.
I wouldn't expect 82 pred to carry a much bigger tender (?). Probably takes a 3.25 m.
The paint is likely awlgrip/awlcraft or alexseal. I don't know whether the paint or underlying gel coat is cracking. A respray in the med is not cheap (ballpark €75k) and you will be price chipped for bad paint when you sell so you might want to chip now. Some of these paints allow easy touch up e.g. Awlcraft2000 but at 8 years with black/hot sun you're probably in respray territory.
By the way do not underestimate how hot black will get in the august sun. You can easily fry eggs.
Good going and thanks for update.
I wouldn't expect 82 pred to carry a much bigger tender (?). Probably takes a 3.25 m.
The paint is likely awlgrip/awlcraft or alexseal. I don't know whether the paint or underlying gel coat is cracking. A respray in the med is not cheap (ballpark €75k) and you will be price chipped for bad paint when you sell so you might want to chip now. Some of these paints allow easy touch up e.g. Awlcraft2000 but at 8 years with black/hot sun you're probably in respray territory.
By the way do not underestimate how hot black will get in the august sun. You can easily fry eggs.
Good going and thanks for update.
Danvilletim
Member
A bit more... we looked at a 27m maiora yesterday and it was pretty good looking. Stunning condition for 2003 but had new paint and new teak. The one thing it really highlighted was how nice a flybridge would be. Supposedly the 27m is still >24 load line. It would be a bit much with just the wife but on the plus had two sep crew cabins so crew would be happy.
Also I was surprised at the speed on the cayman. It seemed slow with 1650hp cats. Cruise at 21 and wot at 30. I would have expected more.
The cayman is too small to charter or bring another family along. The Maiora is. So that is what we are thinking through.
Also I was surprised at the speed on the cayman. It seemed slow with 1650hp cats. Cruise at 21 and wot at 30. I would have expected more.
The cayman is too small to charter or bring another family along. The Maiora is. So that is what we are thinking through.
MapisM
Well-Known Member
I'm 90% sure that the M27 is "formally" within 24m.
Ref. being too much, as long as you are thinking to employ some crew there's no such thing as a "too big" boat, I reckon...
Otoh, if you are thinking to bear the whole boat burden (not just handling, but also clean, etc.) just with your wife, well, fwiw I ruled out much smaller boats (around the 20m mark) because for us they were already too much in that respect...
Ref. the Cayman speed, did you seatrial her? And if so, at what rpm was she spinning when she reached 30kts?
Anyway, 30kts doesn't sound too far off the mark for a heavish, deep V hull of that size/power...
Danvilletim
Member
Yes we did a pre survey sea trial. So we didn't go Wot. 18 knots at 1650rpm and 21knots at about 2000-2100. No complaints in the ride but it was flat.
I think I change my mind between the big and small every couple hours. The Maiora is Spanish flagged and therefore not needed to be commercially classes. So for me I (us citizen) I would need to bring her back to Rina class and register with a new flag and get a charter permit for Mallorca. Whew all that work has me leaning towards the small boat.
I think I change my mind between the big and small every couple hours. The Maiora is Spanish flagged and therefore not needed to be commercially classes. So for me I (us citizen) I would need to bring her back to Rina class and register with a new flag and get a charter permit for Mallorca. Whew all that work has me leaning towards the small boat.
Portofino
Well-Known Member
That’s not very impressive performance.
Maybe the sterngear was not clean ? And the hull a little fouled up ? This time of the year if haul out is Easter ish ?
Exhaust Gas Temperatures are the giveaway or the load too .
This pocket rocket has had a lot of work recently
https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/1399860/
There will be a lot of hassle and greater expense chartering out a27 M fly bridge .
Any perceived income benefit or running cost offset could be lost with the crew costs , coding , and general 27 M verse say 22M fixed costs .
Plus you loose the spontaneity of use yourself .
So that’s why if you get a well maintained smaller - your outlay is less , running is less and if no charter your responsibility is less .
There’s plenty of guardianarge Co,s who will look after it and prep it ( provision / diver for the props etc ) for you without there being a full time skipper and crew on board .
The one in the link ^^^^ looks like it’s at the bottom of the garden in a villa in Port Grimaud .
Best of both worlds - real estate ** and a nice boat , as one appreciates the other deprecates , so when you call it quits in the EU , and sell up at least your property has made you some €€€
Anyhow the boat @ around 10 years old is on the flat part of any depreciation curve anyhow .
So just a 70 ftr ,but a fast 70;ftr should do as an owner driver .
Re - accommodation - as I think you know guests sometimes prefer a nice local hotel near to the base marina ,particularly none boaty friends , so I would not beat yourself up over trying to find a 4 cabin ( ex crew ) boat cum floating apartment.
** real estate not advertised for sale - but you could ask .
Get a package? Now that’s a lot easier to rent out independently- short hol lets or long term thinking diesel fund
Maybe the sterngear was not clean ? And the hull a little fouled up ? This time of the year if haul out is Easter ish ?
Exhaust Gas Temperatures are the giveaway or the load too .
This pocket rocket has had a lot of work recently
https://www.theyachtmarket.com/boats_for_sale/1399860/
There will be a lot of hassle and greater expense chartering out a27 M fly bridge .
Any perceived income benefit or running cost offset could be lost with the crew costs , coding , and general 27 M verse say 22M fixed costs .
Plus you loose the spontaneity of use yourself .
So that’s why if you get a well maintained smaller - your outlay is less , running is less and if no charter your responsibility is less .
There’s plenty of guardianarge Co,s who will look after it and prep it ( provision / diver for the props etc ) for you without there being a full time skipper and crew on board .
The one in the link ^^^^ looks like it’s at the bottom of the garden in a villa in Port Grimaud .
Best of both worlds - real estate ** and a nice boat , as one appreciates the other deprecates , so when you call it quits in the EU , and sell up at least your property has made you some €€€
Anyhow the boat @ around 10 years old is on the flat part of any depreciation curve anyhow .
So just a 70 ftr ,but a fast 70;ftr should do as an owner driver .
Re - accommodation - as I think you know guests sometimes prefer a nice local hotel near to the base marina ,particularly none boaty friends , so I would not beat yourself up over trying to find a 4 cabin ( ex crew ) boat cum floating apartment.
** real estate not advertised for sale - but you could ask .
Get a package? Now that’s a lot easier to rent out independently- short hol lets or long term thinking diesel fund
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Danvilletim
Member
I'd like to think the cayman would cruise at 80%. Since it wasn't a post contract sea trial I didn't want to push it to see if it would meet max rpms.
The AB looks sweet but no glass doors. The glass doors took off 10 Deb on my sound meter app with the doors closed.
I agree that the small boat provides for some nice spontaneous rides without arranging crew. Especially in the us where we are not med mooring.
The AB looks sweet but no glass doors. The glass doors took off 10 Deb on my sound meter app with the doors closed.
I agree that the small boat provides for some nice spontaneous rides without arranging crew. Especially in the us where we are not med mooring.
Portofino
Well-Known Member
I think in the season most folks have the doors open and poss any sun roof in the HT if it’s got one .
Looking back at the Cayman pics - it’s modern,fresh has nice exterior spaces to spread out and the sport bridge helm is a nice feature better to drive with sun and wind etc .
I think a pred 82 will feel dated interior wise and a bit fuddy duddy ,obviously bigger , but no exterior helm .
No convinced engineering wise about long term issues with the revolving sun roof thingy- that’s smacks of leaks and big bills .
We are in Antibes this evening and La Napoule Mon / Tue .
Med mooring is really 2 nd nature after a short while , you can get berths for this size at or near entrances to marinas on the outer walls - so,s there’s loads of turning space infront - if that’s what worrying you or hire a skipper for 3 mornings .
Sunseeker sent me a skipper for 4 days when I bought a boat from them - worked out Ok
Looking back at the Cayman pics - it’s modern,fresh has nice exterior spaces to spread out and the sport bridge helm is a nice feature better to drive with sun and wind etc .
I think a pred 82 will feel dated interior wise and a bit fuddy duddy ,obviously bigger , but no exterior helm .
No convinced engineering wise about long term issues with the revolving sun roof thingy- that’s smacks of leaks and big bills .
We are in Antibes this evening and La Napoule Mon / Tue .
Med mooring is really 2 nd nature after a short while , you can get berths for this size at or near entrances to marinas on the outer walls - so,s there’s loads of turning space infront - if that’s what worrying you or hire a skipper for 3 mornings .
Sunseeker sent me a skipper for 4 days when I bought a boat from them - worked out Ok
Danvilletim
Member
Thanks Portofino. I got back to San Francisco two nights ago. Long flight! Once the kids are in college we will look forward to keep a boat there. For the meantime what we bust will come the East Coast within a. Month or so. It seems a shame to bring it back so soon, but life is what it is.
We looked at the predator the last day and it's was a bit sad. Bigger, but poor use of space. I'd take the cayman any day.
On the Cayman of the 27m Maiora we would prefer to have crew sometime and would certainly want help with wash downs and certainly all maintenance. But committing to a full time employee or two is scary, unless a charter business demands it.
But there is something quite alluring of meeting up with a buddy and just taking off at a moments notice without crew. That sense of independence is wonderful. Perhaps the Maiora isn't that much bigger in terms of taking the boat out? Wife still isn't going to wash it
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2003/Maiora-27-3011605/Barcelona/Spain?refSource=standard%20listing#.Wq5qybFlChB
We looked at the predator the last day and it's was a bit sad. Bigger, but poor use of space. I'd take the cayman any day.
On the Cayman of the 27m Maiora we would prefer to have crew sometime and would certainly want help with wash downs and certainly all maintenance. But committing to a full time employee or two is scary, unless a charter business demands it.
But there is something quite alluring of meeting up with a buddy and just taking off at a moments notice without crew. That sense of independence is wonderful. Perhaps the Maiora isn't that much bigger in terms of taking the boat out? Wife still isn't going to wash it
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2003/Maiora-27-3011605/Barcelona/Spain?refSource=standard%20listing#.Wq5qybFlChB
MapisM
Well-Known Member
Perhaps the Maiora isn't that much bigger in terms of taking the boat out? Wife still isn't going to wash it
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2003/Maiora-27-3011605
That Maiora surely looks like a proper floating villa.
Does she have the rather peculiar arrangement with the tender+crane hidden under a garage at the bow?
I half recall that the M27 is the model where they "invented" that solution.
Ref. taking her out, I don't think that you would have any problems.
Not much differences in the damages you can make while maneuvering, either with her or with a 75 footer...
You just need an adequate berth size, but that's stating the obvious.
And the differences are even less relevant while cruising, of course.
Great engines btw - I believe that the 1500hp MTU of that vintage were the V12 M91 2000 series, the same blocks that Fabio Buzzi installed in his 80 footer (4 of them!) which established several records, including the Round Britain, back in 2001.
Two of them will not make such a large boat as the M27 a speed demon of course (in fact, according to the ad, she can "only" make 27kts max), but that's totally irrelevant. Cruising in the low 20 in great comfort is the essence of boats like that.
Incidentally, I guess that she would be a great platform for installing some zero speed fin stabilizers, bringing an already excellent comfort to an even higher level.
Go for her I say, and forget AB, Predator and the likes.
What Med lifestyle is all about is enjoying your time on the water, not reaching Corsica at 30+kts from SoF with Itamas, ABs, Predators, or whatever, and then rush back in time to drive or fly somewhere else. Any resemblance to real events and/or to real persons, is purely coincidental.
Well, almost.
Danvilletim
Member
Thanks MapisM. The other benefit is Maiora is known in the us and once here, resell would be easier. I agree that a pair of electric fin zero speeds would be ideal!!!! I do love the hydraulic tender hatch forward, very super yachty!
MapisM
Well-Known Member
If you should consider such installation (which is what BartW of this parish did on his Canados, with excellent results), I understand that CMC Marine recently established a branch specifically for retrofitting, because even if their main business is with boatbuilders, their systems are in high demand also for retrofitting.
Which is very understandable, because while electric fins have several advantages also in new builds, when retrofitting they are practically a no brainer.
