Any electronic experts can help?

skyflyer

skyflyer

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Hopefully I will get an answer from Raymarine - eventually - but in meantime maybe someone else has come across this problem,

Kit:
New e7 plotter
New SPX-5 wheel pilot with 6002 control head
existing ST50 depth/log/wind instruments
STng converter to allow old and new to talk

Problem
The wheelpilot will happily work in heading hold mode and in the mode where it maintains a constant angle to the wind, but if you try and couple it to a track on the e7 it just steers wildly all over the shop!

eg: Track to next waypoint is 090deg. Boat is 0.1nm south of track. Heading is 085deg Engage wheelpilot in track mode. Result boat turns to head say 010deg, crosses track, then heads 170 deg, crosses track again then maybe heads 230deg (away from waypoint!) and so on! At best you can get it to weave a course about 1nm either side of track with headings varying to plus or minus 50 deg from track! But sometimes it just turns in completely oppositre direction to the waypoint!

The ST6002 appears to ‘know’ the next waypoint OK as you can sequence the display to show distance to waypoint, bearing to waypoint (BTW) which tallies with the e7. (I guess it derives its info from the e7). Similarly cross track error. However, if the BTW is (say) 242deg the 6002 display might suddenly say BTW 045deg just for a few seconds then revert to 242deg. Its like something is interfering with the maths it is doing!

I have tried it both with a proper ‘route’ and also just with the ‘navigate to cursor position’ function and its the same with both.

It is of course quite useable as having drawn a route one can use heading mode and alter the heading to keep on the route. The e7 still alerts you as you approach the next waypoint so all is well there.

I don't think its anything to do with the settings of the 6002 such as ruder gain, rudder damping and counter rudder as the wheel pilot behaves fine when turning onto a new heading etc., it just wont track!

Would the old ST50 instruments have an effect on this ? Could they or the converter box be sending a spurious signal every now and then?

Scanning old threads I see there have been instances of older pilots/plotters/course computers needing upgrades etc but this is a brand new item.

Obviously yes it is under warranty but for obvious reasons and in situ fix is preferable to removing it and returning it to RM.

Thanks in anticpation
 
It sounds like a software problem rather than electronics to me.
It would appear the two devices have some communication, at least the pilot is getting some instructions from the plotter.
Maybe you need to prove that the comms are good from pilot to plotter.
I would imagine the pilot feeds back heading to the plotter.
Can you read that back on the plotter screen?

Personally, I would suggest sailing the boat instead of trying to program it.
 
You might try calling Raymarine which I did yesterday about the E7, also there is a software update available for the E7 which can be downloaded from the website, also are the ST50 compatable with the E7? I thought I had seen somewhere that they were not, might be worth checking.
 
That's what the translator box thingy is for - to allow ST50 inst to talk to the other stuff. RM told me this was all I needed at LBS so it should work.

Yes heading feeds back ok to e7

Yes I also like to sail but it is handy on a long cross channel passage of 20hrs!

G
 
By "electronics expert" what you really mean is Doctor Who. In real life you can't just wave a sonic screwdriver at some horrendously complicated piece of equipment and magically fix it!
 
skyflyer said:
Hopefully I will get an answer from Raymarine - eventually - but in meantime maybe someone else has come across this problem,

Kit:
New e7 plotter
New SPX-5 wheel pilot with 6002 control head
existing ST50 depth/log/wind instruments
STng converter to allow old and new to talk

Problem
The wheelpilot will happily work in heading hold mode and in the mode where it maintains a constant angle to the wind, but if you try and couple it to a track on the e7 it just steers wildly all over the shop!

eg: Track to next waypoint is 090deg. Boat is 0.1nm south of track. Heading is 085deg Engage wheelpilot in track mode. Result boat turns to head say 010deg, crosses track, then heads 170 deg, crosses track again then maybe heads 230deg (away from waypoint!) and so on! At best you can get it to weave a course about 1nm either side of track with headings varying to plus or minus 50 deg from track! But sometimes it just turns in completely oppositre direction to the waypoint!

The ST6002 appears to ‘know’ the next waypoint OK as you can sequence the display to show distance to waypoint, bearing to waypoint (BTW) which tallies with the e7. (I guess it derives its info from the e7). Similarly cross track error. However, if the BTW is (say) 242deg the 6002 display might suddenly say BTW 045deg just for a few seconds then revert to 242deg. Its like something is interfering with the maths it is doing!

I have tried it both with a proper ‘route’ and also just with the ‘navigate to cursor position’ function and its the same with both.

It is of course quite useable as having drawn a route one can use heading mode and alter the heading to keep on the route. The e7 still alerts you as you approach the next waypoint so all is well there.

I don't think its anything to do with the settings of the 6002 such as ruder gain, rudder damping and counter rudder as the wheel pilot behaves fine when turning onto a new heading etc., it just wont track!

Would the old ST50 instruments have an effect on this ? Could they or the converter box be sending a spurious signal every now and then?

Scanning old threads I see there have been instances of older pilots/plotters/course computers needing upgrades etc but this is a brand new item.

Obviously yes it is under warranty but for obvious reasons and in situ fix is preferable to removing it and returning it to RM.

Thanks in anticpation
Click to expand...

So you have just fitted the STNG convertor between 6002 and E7 and the SPX5 remains connected directly to the 6002?

The convertor instructions do state:-
On page 16:
SeaTalk autopilot system (This cannot be connected to the converter.)
and on page 17
SeaTalk autopilot (e.g. S1, S2 or S3 course computer with
ST6002 controller) — This cannot be connected to the converter,
nor to any device on the converter’s SeaTalk spur. A SeaTalk
autopilot will usually be connected directly to the multifunction
display.

However, since the E7 appears to have a nmea 0183 output, connect this to the ST6002's nmea input and this should solve the problem.
Ian
 
CreakyDecks said:
By "electronics expert" what you really mean is Doctor Who. In real life you can't just wave a sonic screwdriver at some horrendously complicated piece of equipment and magically fix it!
Click to expand...

No CreakyDecks, I mean someone like Ianj99 who understands these things - if you don't then no need to apply, thanks!
:D
 
skyflyer said:
That's what the translator box thingy is for - to allow ST50 inst to talk to the other stuff. RM told me this was all I needed at LBS so it should work.

Yes heading feeds back ok to e7

Yes I also like to sail but it is handy on a long cross channel passage of 20hrs!

G
Click to expand...

If the two units are reliably talking in both directions, I cannot see that there is a hardware problem.
So it is either firmware/software, or some set up of one or both units.
I know a fair bit about hardware and digital interfaces, but I have no specific knowledge of these two units.

In general though, I would work through the logic of both units needing to know that one is supposed to be master and the other the slave. Make sure there isn't something that needs to be set on a menu in either unit.

FWIW, I find it a lot easier just to set the course for a cross-channel from the passage plan.
I do hope you are not trying to use the unit to achieve zero xte all the way across, perhaps there is something in the software that is rebelling against this?

I suspect you need to read the manual again, then call Raymarine I'm afraid.
 
Ianj99

Very helpful info; many thanks. The problem however is that I didnt fit it! It was specified by Raymarine at LBS, bought from an approved dealer (at their stand) and for long complicated reasons I wont bore you with (basically the sales outlet went bust) installed by another RM approved installer.

I chose to have it professionally installed so that:-
a) warranty is extended to 3 years for free and
b) these sort of problems would not happen!

Simple answer - go back to the installer, say "it doesnt work,please fix it". However this will take time and my immediate problem is that I am the wrong side of the Channel and whilst I am sure the original installer will look at it under warranty in due course, I am not sure I want to start mucking about as you suggest or it could invalidate it.

I had hoped it might be just a software configuration issue that I could change a setting for, but if there are hardware issues I will obviously have to get it looked at professionally

However I'll pass on the info in a diplomatic way to the installer when we get home!

My understanding was that there was no NMEA involved it was all Seatalk and STNG though?
 
lw395 said:
I do hope you are not trying to use the unit to achieve zero xte all the way across,
Click to expand...

Only on a tide-less, windless, currentless world
:D

No - the brutal fact is I struggle to see when and where this function would be useful - motoring in a square pattern to even up my suntan maybe - but the point is that its an expensive bit of kit, i paid extra to have it installed professionally and I would like it to perform as advertised!

Bottom line - back to Raymarine, I had just hoped it might have been something obvious and a quick fix which it could be if Ianj99 is correct!

Thanks everyone for their input though.

G
 
skyflyer said:
No CreakyDecks, I mean someone like Ianj99 who understands these things - if you don't then no need to apply, thanks!
:D
Click to expand...

Ah but he's not solved your problem by being an electronics expert, he has (hopefully) solved it by knowing something about navigation aids :D
 
skyflyer said:
Ianj99
My understanding was that there was no NMEA involved it was all Seatalk and STNG though?
Click to expand...

Not completely true:

The point is that the most course computers have no ST-NG interface, only ST. Hence the connection box you referred to.
The problem with ST is that the interface speed is not very high.

For best results on the e7 multifunction with a radar overlay you need to have a "Fast Heading" signal. This is basically a message telling at least 10 times per second what the heading of the boat is.

A course computer fitted with a gyro sensor is able to deliver this. However the ST interface bus is not fast enough to cope with this (ST-NG is).
This is why a (dedicated) NMEA connection is required between the course computer and the Multifunction; to get the Fast Heading across at sufficient speed.
All other information (waypoint, XTE, etc.) can go via Seatalk.
It's only the very new course computers that support ST-NG directly, making the NMEA connection not required.

So in your case I would expect a connection from the autohelm to the e7 via the ST - STNG interface box and a NMEA connection directly from the course computer (NOT the ST6002) to the e7. The latter being one-way connection from course computer to e7.
 
2 points to check, if you are able:

a) That there is 1 GPS source active only (The E7 has an internal one). You may have an external one as well. In the latter case turn the internal one off via the E7's Setup menu.

b) The installer has created a "data loop" at the SPX-5 A/P by connecting both it's Seatalk1 (ST1) and the SeatalkNG (STNG) into the system. I think from your description of your system that the SPX-5's STNG should be left unconnected, as it's basically an ST1 system. The E7's STNG should be connected to the Converter only. Then connect everything else up using ST1, and finally connect the ST1 to the yellow terminal of the converter. The latter allows the E7 to communicate with the ST1. And the SPX-5 won't then try to bridge data between the ST1 and STNG busses which causes a data loop with the converter doing the same.

The system should work. Mine is pretty similar except I have ST60+ instruments, not ST50, and it works correctly. It may be that the ST50 instruments are not compatible, but I don't know that.
 
The course computer us part if the spx5 wheel pilot purchase so is relatively state of the art one would assume ( yaw rate sensor etc) and certainly designed to work with e7 ( well the other way round, obviously!)

Guidance is internal as they say at mission control. No other Gps source

Interesting I noted today that it seems to randomly and intermittently try to navigate to a waypoint bearing 045 degrees at 99.9 m distant! Needless to say this waypoint doesn't exist in the database

Thanks for all the suggestions but I guess if I need to start taking stuff to bits I better not for fear of messing warranty. It can wait until we have weaver our way home and I will let RM/installer sort it out!

Cheers
 
skyflyer said:
The course computer us part if the spx5 wheel pilot purchase so is relatively state of the art one would assume ( yaw rate sensor etc) and certainly designed to work with e7 ( well the other way round, obviously!)
Click to expand...

Just looked up the manual of the SPX5 and it does carry a ST-NG interface so that implies the direct connection between the plotter and course computer via ST-NG. No NMEA wires required.
The converter is only needed to feed the ST-50 data towards the course computer (to feed the wind angle and boat speed) and the e7 (to display instrument data)
Given the nature of your trouble I'd say the ST-NG cable between the plotter and the course computer is suspect.
See if it's routed close to the VHF antenna cable or some other source of interference. As ST-NG operates at much higher speeds/frequency it may be more susceptible to interference.
Also check if the the wires at the course computer side are making a good connection.
 
If the ST6002 is close to the E7, then why not just simply connect the e7s nmea out to the ST6002 nmea terminals. It might save a lot of extra wiring and does away with the STNG to seatalk converter.

I wouldn't worry about other fancy features the E7 may have - you just want it to send AP data to the course computer, in this case, via the ST6002.
Ian
 
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