Another Tragic Incident in the Aegean

[Irish Rover]

We heard a lot of helicopter and boat activity during the night last night and saw Coast Guard boats patrolling just below our house this morning - neither activity too unusual around here this summer - but then we heard the news.
www.dailysabah.com/turkey/2018/08/09/7-children-2-adults-in-latest-migrant-tragedy-off-western-turkey-coast
This is just so sad and so maddening that these unfortunates find themselves in such desperate circumstances.

 

[savageseadog]

They should be discouraged from setting off in the first place. Yes, a tragedy, but all of them should be stopped and returned. Rescuing them and allowing to stay only creates a demand, let some in, the rest will try as well. Some effort should be made to set up camps in Africa for these people. Maybe there's a good case for military intervention.

 

[macd]

Amongst the many other things in your rancid post that I'd question, dog, what the hell has Africa got do do with it?

 

[Poecheng]

Not 'rancid', just a different view to yours.
One that is very valid and shouldn't be shouted down as if it cannot be said - it can be said and it is a mainstream view.
The alternative is very demonstrably not working.

 

[JumbleDuck]

They should be discouraged from setting off in the first place. Yes, a tragedy, but all of them should be stopped and returned.

Bearing mind that leaving their home countries involves the expenditure of their life savings, long uncomfortable journeys and the very real prospect of death, I think it is safe to assume that they have pretty powerful reasons for leaving the hell-hole into which the West turned their country.

We have been here before:

 

[macd]

Not 'rancid', just a different view to yours.
One that is very valid and shouldn't be shouted down as if it cannot be said - it can be said and it is a mainstream view.
The alternative is very demonstrably not working.

OK, Let's send all Iraqis to Africa. That'd be fair and humane. And illegal, but let's not worry about details.
As for "these people"...

 

[Vega1447]

OK, Let's send all Iraqis to Africa. That'd be fair and humane. And illegal, but let's not worry about details.
As for "these people"...

I expect to be beaten up by a mod for pursuing this post but ...

The reference to Africa by another poster was a mistake I expect but ... no country (e.g. Greece/Italy) or group of countries (e.g. the EU) can accept all comers without limit.

The hard part is devising a decent and workable policy for dealing with the potentially 10's of millions who want to move to Europe from the Near East and N Africa.

Above my pay grade.

 

[savageseadog]

Amongst the many other things in your rancid post that I'd question, dog, what the hell has Africa got do do with it?

The majority are African? Allowing them into Europe is not an option or solution. I believe very large numbers of "refugees" are economic migrants.

The example of the Jews is an interesting one, it could be a good argument for military intervention. Had we intervened in Germany the holocaust and WW2 might not have happened.

 

[steve yates]

The majority are African? Allowing them into Europe is not an option or solution. I believe very large numbers of "refugees" are economic migrants.

The example of the Jews is an interesting one, it could be a good argument for military intervention. Had we intervened in Germany the holocaust and WW2 might not have happened.

I have read some daft comments before, but these go the extra mile. "These people"? do you include the young children as "these people"?

It's funny how these "economic migrants" seem to overwhelmingly come from those countries and areas devastated by war and disaster. They are refugees.

Brits going to europe for work in the 70's were economic migrants, poles coming to the uk are economic migrants. Being a european economic migrant is neither illegal or a big deal. By definition, almost all migrants are economic ones. Most people move to work somewhere and earn some money, they don't do it to sample the beer and the wine.

Military intervention sometimes works, but usually causes more harm than good. Military intervention in Germany in the late 1930's would simply have started world war 2 early and probably have resulted in Germany winning it, as the americans would probably not have got involved at all and hitler would not have double crossed russia till he had won in the west.. The idea that it would have prevented it is laughable.

 

[Irish Rover]

I regret starting this thread.

 

[Stemar]

I regret starting this thread.

I sympathise, but refugees/economic migrants (delete according to your prejudices) are always an emotive issue.

My take is that the problem is that human trafficking is an extremely lucrative trade and the traffickers have no interest in the survival of their cargoes. Packing 13 people into a boat intended for three is manslaughter in my book and all traffickers should be chased down and locked up for a long time in an unpleasant Asian or African jail

I was slightly surprised to read that one of the people taken into custody was suspected of being a trafficker - more often, the traffickers jump over the side and swim to the shore or are picked up by a mate, leaving a boat with, frequently, insufficient fuel to get to their destination. Maybe he was just another migrant who knew one end of an outboard from the other and got a discount to drive.

 

[wonkywinch]

It was almost 30 years ago that Charles Murray wrote about the rising "Underclass" in the US and the same pattern in the UK. His book ends with the warning that the future threat comes, not from the native underclass people but from economic migrants in Europe.

I recently sailed in Gibraltar and having rarely heard a DSC pan or mayday in the Solent, was surprised by the frequency of calls coming in down there. Almost every hour there was a relay from the Spanish coastguard about a "rubber boat sighted adrift with 58 on board" etc.

It's heartbreaking to read what is going on.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I regret starting this thread.

IMO the problem arises when a poster on a predominantly UK forum assumes that all forumites are ethnic British with the same sense of fair-play and prejudice when there is absolutely no indication of the ethnic background of the majority who use "pen-names".

Try going into a crowded pub wearing a blindfold then jump on table and announce in a loud voice everyone can hear, that all immigrants should be sent back to Africa.

In some pubs they would carry you on their shoulders and buy you a free beer. In other pubs you would be lucky to get out alive.

This is a general observation and not addressed to anything written by Irish Rover. I have no idea what the ethnic background of any posters are. Except you who state they are Irish.

I am old enough to remember when WOP was changed by early language police to WOG to encompass the upper class. Or was it the other way round.

 

[Seven Spades]

We heard a lot of helicopter and boat activity during the night last night and saw Coast Guard boats patrolling just below our house this morning - neither activity too unusual around here this summer - but then we heard the news.
www.dailysabah.com/turkey/2018/08/09/7-children-2-adults-in-latest-migrant-tragedy-off-western-turkey-coast
This is just so sad and so maddening that these unfortunates find themselves in such desperate circumstances.

I presume this is a Troll.

 

[Irish Rover]

There are some absolute idiots posting on this forum.

 

[RichardS]

There are some absolute idiots posting on this forum.

All part of life's rich tapestry.

Richard

 

[Tomahawk]

There have been a recent number of adverts for a charity that supports education for young girls in Africa. They focus on a young girl pointing out that in a short while she will be taken out of school and married to a much older man. By the time she is 14 she will have carried a couple of children and likely suffered a miscarriage. She will endure a lifetime of hard work without any chance of decent employment. It is a tragedy to be sure. But the underlying and unsaid story is that African culture is the root cause of such treatment of women. It must be so otherwise there would not be any charities trying to support and educate young girls.

So I wonder, what will be the consequence of large numbers of people from such a different culture arriving in Europe? How will they integrate? What opportunities exist for them, especially if they don't speak the local language when the arrive? Will new arrivals find themselves at the bottom of the economic ladder living a life of poverty? In short, will the migration we are witnessing simply create ghettoes and social division?

It is against that background that politicians need to address the migration issue highlighted by the OP. And, no I don't have the answers.

 

[Stemar]

The solution to our immigration problems lies in solving issues in the immigrants' home countries. Anything else is like trying to fix a leak in your roof from the inside - expensive and generally ineffective.

The problem with these charities is that little of the money is actually used to help such children. Leaving aside the cost of fancy TV ads, plussalaries and other admin costs in the UK, what does get to Africa is all to often siphoned off by corrupt officials, whether that be local employees of the charity or what passes for local government.

Until you can get rid of endemic corruption, you'll never be able to accomplish much in such places. And, no, I don't have the answers either

 

[DownWest]

.
So I wonder, what will be the consequence of large numbers of people from such a different culture arriving in Europe? How will they integrate? What opportunities exist for them, especially if they don't speak the local language when the arrive? Will new arrivals find themselves at the bottom of the economic ladder living a life of poverty? In short, will the migration we are witnessing simply create ghettoes and social division?

.

The consequences have been visible for years. Areas around Paris are no-go. some parts of the UK are single culture, but not what they were 40yrs ago.
As said, target the people smugglers and try to get the guvs who run the countries that the immigrants come from to do a decent job. But, as above, not holding my breath on that one.

 

[Irish Rover]

All part of life's rich tapestry.

Richard

I don’t think I could describe it as a rich tapestry. Seven young children died in the incident I referenced in the OP and I see little basic human compassion on here. Posters come on pontificating about migration and how it should be discouraged and some are just short of blaming the migrants themselves for their plight. Those of us who are parents especially those of us from less well off backgrounds know how much we want our children to have a better chance in life. Parents in desperate circumstances are forced into desperate measures to try to get a better life for their kids or to escape immediate life threatening situations. I hope none of us are ever in a similar situation but I do think it would benefit people to sit down now and again and imagine what you would do if your children were in the same hopeless purgatory. Are people who express concerns about the difficulty migrants have integrating actually more concerned about how they might disturb our comfortable lives? I’d say it would be much easier for them to integrate if they weren’t treated like unwelcome vermin.