Another spleen venting re brokers

[Andrew_Fanner]

See a boat online, think its interesting and looks possible.
Drive 200 miles (each way) to view. Boat is decommssioned for the winter, no batteries, apparent bit of water in engine bay ("auto bilge pumps not working as the batteries are out for the winter) so nowt works but looks possible, with TLC.
Tell broker you are interested. Broker sends copies of invoices for last three years or so.
Look at pile of invoices (many £K), think hard, search t' webby thingy for information. Pester other boaters likewise.
Offer subject to survey asking price less 10% rounded to nearest £500.
Offer accepted (hand apparently bitten off!)
Book survey, lift, scrub off and recommission for survey booked.
Drive another 200 miles with surveyor.
Scrub off leaves mussels hanging and slime on the underwater hull.
Recommission does not seem to include charging batteries that do anything but start engines (24V and 12V systems) nor putting some water into the tanks nor removing the oily bilge that makes checking state of P bracket fixings (among other things) impossible. As a consequence there is a whole list of unserviceable and could not be examined items. As a further consequence the surveyor's valuation is roughy 70% of the original asking price.
Drive another 200 miles last w/e to show children who are basically pleased with the idea. Mention the valuation, recommendations and conclusions in survey to broker who seems underwhelmed by same. "He has already come down a lot for you" and "That's our valuation of the boat" being his remarks on the suggestion of a drop in price and an original overvaluation based on not possibly looking very hard below deck plates.

Don't really want to walk, boat ticks the family boxes but what do the panel think about presentation and state of boat at survey? Does the broker have any responsibility? If so I've no qualms about belting the fellow right in the sales commission and dropping my offer bu a couple of £K. As a secondary matter, some of the invoiced work seems not to have taken place, or was seriously shoddy. That I suspect is a problem for the vendor but am I justified in seeing it as definate grounds for price reduction or "you sort it then I'll pay"?

Well, even if there's not many responses I feel better for that

 

[Sultans_Kapitein]

I think that the condition probably reflects the way the current owner thought about the craft, i.e. NOT A LOT ! Unless you are happy, don't do it. If she seems neglected, that must tell you something.
I made all the mistakes in the book when I bought Sultan, next time, if there is a next time, I shall get a survey and publish a precis on here to get the benefit off the vast wealth of experience. But at the end of the day, we do tend to 'Fall for them' don't we, just like the ladies
Mal

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

My spies tell me that the vendor is not cheerful in his tent about it all either.

 

[Channel Ribs]

I think you should keep your spleen fired up for a while yet. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

You might start by suggesting the vendor or broker have the boat ready for a proper survey and that they reimburse you for the first and essentially wasted survey, this will not go down well but it does not sound like they have buyers queing up to make an offer.

Once they have buckled on that issue, which they ought to anyway if they wish to entice any new buyers, then you will be in a better position to put prices on the work which needs doing or redoing. Deduct the cost of jobs deemed essential by the survey from your previously acceptable offer and see what they say.

 

[mitchc]

I've just gone through the same procedure as you, but were able to come to an agreement for sale of the boat /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I'm no expert but this is what we did:

First take an unbiased friend who look at the boat without the usual rose tinted specs. to make sure it's the right one for you.

Once the survey is done, compile a list detailing the equipment n/w and the cost to replace (worst case). The figure you come up with will probably be scary! Present this to the broker and ask him to put in your reduced offer again, suppoerted by the repair cost estimate....

Hopefully you can find a sensible compromise somewhere between the original offer price and the price minus the cost of repairs.
If equipment is not working, it may as well not be fitted to the boat, so the boat should be cheaper......

I think this is the usual way things work, and it's just worked for us.

Of the few brokers I've had experiene of though, they are all pretty lazy and obviously don't want to work on behalf of the potential buyer, as this will inevitably loose them commision!

Good Luck

 

[gibbowolfie]

Trouble is here you can't show representative repair/replace costs because you say you have a lot of things that can't be checked. The state of the boat and the owners apparent disregard for ensuring the boat is in a surveyorable condition (it's the vendors responsibility not the broker unless thatv was part of thier agreement) aside you are in a weak position on getting a reduction on the basis of repairs.

I wonder why the surveyor didn't stop, say "this can't be surveyor completely" and save you money. That in itself is a better answer to go to the broker with (look it's not just me buddy) than a list of "unknowns" that an awkward broker can side step as saying well they're alright the surveyour didn't say they actually need repairing etc.

My purchase of Lunici Too brought issues up of low power on motor and signs that servicing hadn't got the full nod in the last 12 months. I got the servicing of motor/leg inc lift at vendors cost and a 2nd seatrial, all the time I said I still held the right to reject even after that work was done.

I'd be REALLY firm on having a 2nd survey after the issues were fixed stopping the 1st one being as complete as you would expect. If it was me I'd also say you hold yr right to reject and have the work done yourself as my trust would be low about it getting done by vendor correctly but I beleive that's his right. You still need to be happy with the result and a look see by the survey if necessary after completion.

Remember the basis of your offer was that the boat met your expectations and what you could see. A surveyor may turn up all sorts and if they weren't expected you have grounds for a reduction or repair by vendor.

Good luck.

 

[gibbowolfie]

[ QUOTE ]
My spies tell me that the vendor is not cheerful in his tent about it all either.

[/ QUOTE ]

My vendor was livid that I expected the cooker to work and wanted him to pay the service costs. Wel if he'd serviced everything correctly at the time he'd have paid less, still not my problem.

Funny thing was I doubt it had ever been used as the service showed an electrical connection wasn't in the place it should have been.

 

[peterb26]

FWIW - my feelings are:-

a) The boat hasnt been looked after, the previous owner didnt care for it as is evident from the state its in.

b) You are suspicious that some of the work for which you have invoices has actually been done.

Personally, I'd walk and put it down to experience. Presently you are letting your heart rule your head. Sorry, but theres no other way to put it.

 

[gibbowolfie]

I kind of agree with TAM.

You could reasonable expect to get the cost back of the additional survey and the commitment to reduce/repair (as it still yr right to expect) on anything found after the 2nd survey. It should be less that 1st as surveyor has already checked some stuff!

If they don't like that and say the price was as far down as they'll go then threaten to walk. If they still don't back down, actually walk. Not much you can do about yr costs so far though, and that's a shame.

That said, if you doubt the servicing so far (and I bet they will be in areas the survey won't warrant) then you really should walk.

I was advised to walk with Lunici Too but decided to give it a go if the vendor paid the servicing. Turned out fine although I HAVE ended up with more costs than I should have. That will not be happening next time.

 

[gjgm]

first, take the emotional aspects out. Its a pain for you to drive 200miles, but thats nothing to do with the deal.
If I understand. electical and water systems couldnt be tested becasue in recommisioning, these were not made ready? Couldnt the surveyor have found a hose, and put some water in the systems? And I m not clear, is 70pct valuation based on his findings, or he s taken an extra chunk off the valuation bcz he couldnt test those systems? If the latter, I cant see why a vendor would agree to that.
In the end, its a business transaction. For some reason most of us seem to be less savvy with boats than we might be with double glazing salesmen! I think you will enjoy the boat only if you pay what you are happy with. You can try giving justifications to the broker/seller, but I m not always sure they are listening. Offer what makes sense to you. If it doesnt work, well, ok, look elsewhere. there really is little point in paying more than you really think its worth.

 

[apollo]

Thats the whole reason for offering "subject to survey".

Its a buyers market, drop the offer accordingly OR demand that the survey issues are rectified as part of the deal!

If they really wont play, walk - there WILL always be another boat.

 

[longjohnsilver]

Really can't see the issue with the broker, he's not responsible for the condition of the boat, that's down to the owner. He's the one at fault and it's he who will suffer the loss.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

The broker is only acting as the vendor's agent and therefore does not have a contractual obligation to ensure that the boat is in good order or assist the surveyor although obviously it is in his interest to do so. It sounds to me as if your surveyor has not exactly tried v hard to test some of the items. How hard can it be to fill the water tank and mop up a bit of bilge water? Having said this, the most important aspect of this is that if the components that the surveyor was unable to test are listed on the sales particulars, then you have a contractual right to assume that they are in working order
IMHO, you should inform the broker that your surveyor was unable to test certain items and that you require the vendor to demonstrate to you or your surveyor that these items are in working order before proceeding with the purchase and unless the vendor does so, you will have to assume that they are not in working order and reduce your offer accordingly. Yes I know this means you will have to make another 200mile trip or you will have to pay your surveyor to attend but how much do you want this boat? I do have to agree with the other comments though in that if the vendor is not bothered about the condition in which his boat is presented for sale, how well has he looked after it whilst he owned it?
One thing puzzles me. Why has your surveyor only valued the boat at 70% of your offer? Is it only because he could'nt test certain items and his valuation would increase if those items were satisfactorily tested or is it because he genuinely believes that the boat is'nt worth more, whatever it's condition? If it's the latter, you have to be very convinced you're right and he's wrong

 

[duncan]

I am getting an impression that the broker may have been involved, on behalf of the vendor, in getting the boat prepared for the survey..........I take this from the vendor's concerns.

obvioulsy the ealternative is that the vendor contracted directly with a thierd party - but even here I see space for the broker to have quickly checked things prior to the survayor/prospective purchaser making the trip?

overall I see space for a contingency amount of some sort against what will become obvious when some money gets spent - the alternative of sitting back for the vendor to do this work before recomencing seems a little long winded - simply knocking off an amount representing 'worst case' is equally inappropriate if you actually want to complete - possibly th eright route in November.........

 

[ari]

[ QUOTE ]
Really can't see the issue with the broker, he's not responsible for the condition of the boat, that's down to the owner. He's the one at fault and it's he who will suffer the loss.

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy target though isn't he?

Totally agree, this one's down to the owner (if blame must be attributed).

 

[Jonnysailboat]

I think the role of the broker can become a little cloudy sometimes as this is the only face the buyer will see throughout the sale. In reality the broker is merely a middle-man (or woman obviously!). It’s definitely not the brokers’ responsibility to prepare a vessel for survey nor is it their responsibility to clean it or re-commission it in any way etc. The broker gives the vendor their sales expertise, management (paperwork etc.) and advertising coverage in return for a slice of the asking price. So… any physical preparations requested before a survey takes place are the responsibility of the vendor, if he decides not to prepare the boat for you; your choices are to continue with a sub-standard survey or walk away.

Also... as a matter of interest; a Surveyor would usually ask for the tanks (both water & fuel) to be emptied prior to survey! This is to allow an internal inspection (if access allows). Blisters in GRP freshwater tanks are a common occurrence and can only be identified by sticking your hand in and having a good feel around. In an ideal situation he would ask for the tanks to be removed from the boat completely (removable ones that is!).

 

[Nautorius]

Fair Enough,

But my Broker offered to get my boat prepared for a survey and sea trial and I paid them to get all done. (Basic cleaning etc). I would have been gutted if they had not done a good job. Mind you the buyer did not turn up for trial so no sale anyway!

Cheers

Paul /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

All interesting so far.
Points re vendor's level of care have already been taken into consideration. As an aside, I've never fully winterised a boat as I like to play in the winter so have no idea what might have been shut down, pumped out, kept pumped out or what have you, just judging to my own expectations. Broker was asked to arrange for boat to be recomissioned for survey and, as has been remarked, he is the only face with whom one has contact.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Andrew, give them the ultimatum, if they want to sell the boat then tell them have it prepared so that your second survey can go ahead unhindered - I wouldn't get bogged down in arguments on who is going to pay as you can knock it off the offer price.

If they don't play ball then walk, and chuck a "If you want to be serious about selling this boat, you know my number." over your shoulder. If they really want the sale then they will become more professional about it.

If they are reluctant to prepare the ground then supect they are trying to cover something up.

Did you really drive 200 miles there and back? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Sorry, I just can't agree with that....

A brokers job is to ensure that a boat is sold, not just to deliver advertising, contacts and paperwork management.....

IMHO, its just the fact that the brokers never seem to want to get their hands dirty...

If I was a broker, and the boatswere in my yard, I'd try my hardest to keep them clean.... they surely don't have 9 to 5 appointments to see boats 7 days a week?