Another Scary News Story

It's unfortunate that the news report doesn't identify what was suspected to be the source of the problem.

I'd suspect engine exhaust leaking/drawn/blown into the extensive canvas enclosures the boat has, but that wouldn't explain why the CO levels continued to rise after the rescue services arrived. (Unless they turned engine back on again to check.)
 
I regularly work on boats with no CO alarms and no smoke detectors. I usually manage to convince people to fit them. Not because i'm trying to make a job for myself, i suggest something like the Fire Angel combined CO and smoke alarms, £29.99 from Screwfix, a two minute DIY job.
 
Thought I would have a look at your recommendation, but surprised in the an answer in the Q&A about fitting one in a caravan.
"We would not advise to fit the FireAngel SCO5Q Combination Smoke & CO Alarm in a caravan.
You can go separately for a FireAngel battery-operated smoke alarm, and for a FireAngel carbon monoxide battery-operated detector, which are suitable for such environment." Posted by FireAngel Support
https://www.screwfix.com/p/fireangel-sco5q-combination-smoke-co-alarm/22813#_=p

So assume you might like to change your recommendation.
 
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Concerto said:
Thought I would have a look at your recommendation, but surprised in the an answer in the Q&A about fitting one in a caravan.
"We would not advise to fit the FireAngel SCO5Q Combination Smoke & CO Alarm in a caravan.
You can go separately for a FireAngel battery-operated smoke alarm, and for a FireAngel carbon monoxide battery-operated detector, which are suitable for such environment." Posted by FireAngel Support
https://www.screwfix.com/p/fireangel-sco5q-combination-smoke-co-alarm/22813#_=p

So assume you might like to change your recommendation.
Click to expand...

Erm....no. The Fire Angel SCO5Q complies with BS EN 50291 parts 1 and 2 so it's perfectly suitable for boats.

[TABLE="class: summary-table"]
[TR]
[TH]BS EN 50291-2:2010[/TH]
[TH="width: 40%"]Summary:[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Title: Electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises. Electrical apparatus for continuous operation in a fixed installation in recreational vehicles and similar premises including recreational craft. Additional test methods and performance requirements.[/TD]
[TD]Published: April 2011[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Replaced: NA- New Specification[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...
 
BSSOffice said:
The two alarm industry associations have provided information on the most suitable alarms for boats and the best installation advice specifically for boats and we have published it on our website.

View attachment 71483 Carbon Monoxide (CO) www.boatsafetyscheme.org/co-alarm-advice/

View attachment 71484 Fire www.boatsafetyscheme.org/smoke-alarm-advice/
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting. Hopefully this, and the thread that Matt started will remind people of the importance of smoke and CO alarms.
 
PaulRainbow said:
Thanks for posting. Hopefully this, and the thread that Matt started will remind people of the importance of smoke and CO alarms.
Click to expand...


It will be a good thing if it does do that.

BTW I understand that the reason why Sprue (FireAngel) don't recommend their combined smoke/co alarm for boats is because a smoke alarm is best placed on the ceiling while a CO alarm is best placed at least 150mm down from the ceiling https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/carbon-monoxide-(co)/placing-co-alarms/ and there is an immediate conflict in good practice.

Boat cabins are mainly small and confined, so while neither the best practice specified by the manufacturers, so possibly not the most effective position, as such a cabin might fill rapidly with fumes or smoke and the difference in timing may be minimal. However I have not experience nor technical knowledge to advise if this is case. I can only recommend best practice as specified by the manufacturers.

BTW - readers here may especially remeber the couple from Essex who died in their twin petrol-engined cruiser at Wroxham - mv Love For Lydia. (this was followed in relatively short order by a fatal and twin hospitalisation event in Cardiff on Vasquez and a death of the owner of Mais Ouis in Jersey) The MAIB investigation, which I had the opportunity to attend, shocked me. When the invetsigators turned the engines on, it took less than 20 seconds for insane amount of CO many, many times the fatal limit to be recorded in the covered deck area.

I stood on the quay heading so 20m away and in the same time over 300ppm (also fatal after a some minutes at that level) was recorded in the open atmosphere where I was standing. Sobering.

The investigator on Mais Ouis in Jersey told us he found that CO levels continued to rise in the covered deck area after he turned the engines off.

If I had a meaty petrol-engined boat, I would cautious about idling the engines and I would defo have one or more CO alarms installed. At the first hint of a smell of exhaust fumes in the cabin, it would be off with switch, and opening the door + windows as I move off and away from the boat for a few minutes.
 
BSSOffice said:
It will be a good thing if it does do that.

BTW I understand that the reason why Sprue (FireAngel) don't recommend their combined smoke/co alarm for boats is because a smoke alarm is best placed on the ceiling while a CO alarm is best placed at least 150mm down from the ceiling https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/carbon-monoxide-(co)/placing-co-alarms/ and there is an immediate conflict in good practice.
Click to expand...

Seems to be a bit of conflicting advice with the Fire Angel device. It's being advertised as complying with EN50291-2, which should make it suitable for boats. I contacted Fire Angel by email and by telephone, the person on the phone confirmed that it did comply with EN50291-2 and that it was suitable for boats. I later received a reply to my email, saying :
"The reason we would not recommend installing one of these units on a caravan or boat is because it have not passed the testing to be used for this purpose."

This conflicts with the advice given on the phone and your understanding above, and also defeats the purpose of EN50291-2. Discussion with them is ongoing.
 
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The latest from Fire Angel is :

EN50291-2 – refers to: electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises. Electrical apparatus for continuous operation in a fixed installation in recreational vehicles and similar premises including recreational craft.

We interpret recreational craft to mean inland craft on rivers & canals, so when you ask for a boats we have assumed sea going which we not recommend the SCO5 for.
Click to expand...

Highlighting is mine. So, the device complies with EN50291-2, the first paragraph above is a direct quote (by Fire Angel) from EN50291-2. But they say it's OK for inland waterways boats, not sea boats :confused:

Rob from BSS understanding is that it wasn't recommended for boats at all. It states on the BSS page that Rob posts "Fit alarms approved as meeting BS EN 50291-2; these are best suited for boats." I'd be interested to hear the BSS view on this latest advice ?

One wonders about the purpose of the BS standard .
 
Paul, I suspect the people at Fire Angel who have been communicating with you are guessing.

There is nothing in the formal title of the standard, nor in other references to it I have found online, that suggests it applies to only certain types of recreational craft. There is no alternative standard I can find that relates to seagoing craft.

An EN 50291-2 alarm meets the EN 50291-1 standard, but also meets higher standards of testing & performance to cope with vibration and movement.

According to this page https://www.safelincs.co.uk/british-standards-for-co-alarms/

The Manufacturing Standards
The manufacturing standard covering carbon monoxide detectors is divided into two parts. The previous guiding standard BS 50291:2001 was superceded in April 2011 and a decision was made to split the standard into two parts, with part one covering domestic grade CO detectors, and part two covering detectors intended for use in recreational vehicles such as caravans or boats.

BS EN 50291-1:2010+A1:2012
Title: Electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises. Test methods and performance requirements.
This part one defines the test methods and performance requirements for 'electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises', i.e. carbon monoxide detectors. It covers a wide range of performance and durability measures, and lays out the means, and extent of testing for things such as sensor reaction times, temperature resistance and minimum alarm volume levels.

This is the most widely applicable testing standard for carbon monoxide detectors, and is intended to set a base performance level for devices sold 'for continuous operation in domestic premises'.​


BS EN 50291-2:2010
Title: Electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises. Electrical apparatus for continuous operation in a fixed installation in recreational vehicles and similar premises including recreational craft. Additional test methods and performance requirements.

This part two defines the additional testing needed, and the expected performance criteria for carbon monoxide detectors which are likely to be subject to movement or vibration during their lifespan. In general terms it can be considered that alarms conforming to this standard are more robust than alarms simply carrying the part one kitemark.

This testing standard is becoming a more common sight, perhaps as a result of a growing appetite for portable CO detectors. Recent public information campaigns have valiantly attempted to raise awareness of the dangers of carbon monoxide when camping or boating for example.

Holidaymakers or regular boat and caravan users now have a way of discerning at a glance which CO detectors are designed specifically to keep them safe when travelling. You should always ensure that any CO detectors purchased for use outside of a standard domestic setting conform to part two of BS EN 50291.​

BS EN 50292:2013
Title: Electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises, caravans and boats. Guide on the selection, installation, use and maintenance.

This British standard is the 'Guide on the selection, installation, use and maintenance' of 'Electrical apparatus for the detection of carbon monoxide in domestic premises, caravans and boats'. A simple memory tool to help appreciate the difference between this standard and those previously mentioned would be; carbon monoxide detectors cannot be manufactured to BS EN 50292:2013, but they should be installed to BS EN 50292:2013.

Luckily, to simplify matters for those purchasing CO alarms, the two standards are intertwined. In order to earn a kitemark for either part one or part two of BS EN 50291, the alarm's instructions must be in accordance with BS EN 50292:2013.

For professional installers of carbon monoxide detectors, a working knowledge of BS EN 50292:2013 is essential. However, for non-commercial installers simply following the installation instructions provided should ensure your alarms are sited in accordance to this standard.​
 
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