Another recession 'victim'

[petermd]

Another recession \'victim\'

Received in the post yesterday (as a creditor), notification that Trident Marine, builders of Warrior and Voyager Yachts are in receivership. From my own personal experience of this Company, I can confrim that it operated in the most amatuerish way possible and how the new owners of it staved off the inevitable for the last three years is a mystery. I would suggest that some of the (depleted) workforce and Directors look to their own actions over the years and the significant contribution they have made to the demise of yet another British Boatbuilder. As I own a Swedish yacht perhaps I have myself contributed to this depressing situation. But, let me say that Hallberg Rassy produced my boat, on time (to the designated hour), on cost without ever giving me the impression that they would be going out of business taking my deposit with them. HR may be a little inflexible, but when it comes to producing a quality yacht they are amongst the best and the British Builders haven't got a clue.

 

[claymore]

Re: Another recession \'victim\'

The least offensive of your unfortunate remarks is your admission that to some degree you have contributed to the situation by buying a Swedish boat. One assumes that you must have enjoyed some success in life to find yourself in the fortunate situation of being able to afford to buy this boat. That would suggest that you don't live with your head firmly wedged where the sun doesn't shine. Amazing then that you seem completely unaware of the punitive conditions under which british business does its level best to exist. Try finding out what it is like to manufacture in a country run by a Government which demonstrates such a lack of awareness of the needs of the manufacturing industries and perhaps you might eventually focus your damning remarks more accurately.

 

[BarryD]

Re: Another recession \'victim\'

It would be nice if some of the winghers about industry actually tried to run their own company once in a while. Figured out cash flow, debit and credit, warrenty, marketing etc.. and no before all the one / two man band computer contractors jump up that isn't runnning a company.

Your post is rude and beyond belief - unless of course you are one of the auditors and then know a lot more about the company than you let on.

Barry D.

 

[Guest]

A wager on which builder is next?

Why are you so uptight? Why shouldn't a buyer expect to receive a boat on-time and to budget? Do you really believe life is that easy in a country like Sweden with extortionate rates of taxation? Perhaps you figure that in Sweden, France and Germany they haven't realy started to use the vaccuum process - it's just being inflicted on the poor Britsh builder. Guess again.

The British builders will survive if they wake up to the cold reality that their lot will only continue to get harder. Next year will see more builders go bust - the only question is who? Having compared British boats and foreign marques (without getting into silly money) I have found the foreign boats offer more flexibilty than their British production counterparts, a better fit-out for the same money and far more willingness to get the business.

Let's have a wager: there's only a handful of Britsh builders left. Let's see if we can collectively forecast the next Britsh builder to sink other peoples deposits!

(PS. How many builders of 35'+ boats are left in the UK?)

 

[petermd]

Re: Another recession \'victim\'

I know a darn sight more about this particular Company that you do my friend and as a creditor, I feel as though I am justified in 'blowing off steam'. Having seen at close hand the incompetent management and lack of experience suffered by Trident Marine over the last three years it comes as no surprise that many individuals continue to lose their deposits when dealing with British Boatbuilders.
I know for a fact that one of the reasons Trident have run out of cash is because of a number of dissatisfied owners refused to pay the final installment on collection of their new boat due to poor workmanship and a lack of ability to put things right.
You may feel that my posting was rude but it comes from someone who has the personal experience of being 'ripped off'. Try it yourself sometime.

 

[charles_reed]

Truth hurts

And one can't blame you for taking it personally BUT

I have to agree that the standard of management in most of the British marine industry is abysmal.

Marketing is non-existent, volumes are insufficient to survive, QC is poor.

It's no wonder a Spanish shipwright commented to me that pre-1980 British boats were the best of their kind and post 1980 the worst of the bunch.

No; there will be a lot more taking the walk to the recievers - in the end you, the customer, will be the one to suffer.

For your info I have run very successful companies and have been an active management consultant in the SMC sector for 10 years.

 

[tomg]

Sad really.

I bought a Warrior 40 about three years - from the previous owner. It was a tussle buying it because I insisted on having exactly what I wanted. But on the other hand, unlike Beneteau, HR or Moody I could achieve major departures from the standard spec if I wished. The build quality was not as good as the HR (but the price, the price!) but better than the other two. I test sailed all four and the Warrior and the HR were on a par. But the Warrior builder was flexible, much cheaper, local and British. Small bespoke traders of whatever product or service are the first to bite the dust when the going gets really tough. I would not be surprised if some small Scandinavian builders also go bust and we know that some French ones have. I guess people who trade with small Companies in the teeth of a recession ought to tread very carefully. I try to support British business and small traders in particular - but I am actively careful and demand good product and service. Be like the Americans - complain loudly and at length when the service isn't up to scratch and the service improves. Pity about Trident, more jobs gone, creditors out of pocket, national tax take down and social security payments up, and another dent in British (or perhaps just English) confidence and pride. If they re-emerge and provide a good product at a good price I will trade in for a new one just for the hell of it. Regards.

 

[claymore]

Re: A wager on which builder is next?

British Builders woke up some time ago to the fact that things will get harder.
Think what is entailed in the erosion of a manufacturing base then compare the industry to the british car and motorbike industries - move it wider perhaps by considering farming. British industry is effectively rendered uncompetitive by a combination of factors - taxation, rates, exchange, lack of subsidy, uneven European playing field. and lack of education programmes to suppost a continuance of a skilled workforce to name but a few. You ask why I am uptight - I will explain - it is the insinuation of the original post which suggests that the company has expired through poor workmanship. The offense and insensitivity of those remarks to people who are now faced with awful prospects for the future is obvious, as is the undertone of smugness throughout the posting.
I will take no wagers with you regarding who will go next, I think peoples lives and jobs ought to be considered from a more positive and sensitive perspective than that.

 

[Bergman]

Re: Another recession \'victim\'

I spent a Friday morning at Trident a little over a year ago, looking at a used boat (Voyager 38) which ws for sale.

The boat was so badly presented, dirty, untidy and seemingly unloved that I had no further interest in it and looked around the yard.

That appeared to be in a similar state.

Nothing much was happening, no feeling of a sense of purpose, little interest in me or what I was doing.

I am not surprised at the outcome.

I perhaps have more sympathy for the staff than the directors. What I saw lacking in a couple of hours must have been clear to the management and they have the responsibility for putting it right.

I am sorry you got caught out by this hope it wasn't for too much.

 

[petermd]

Re: Another recession \'victim\'

The boat you mention was owned by the MD of Trident.
Says it all really!

 

[Guest]

Re: Another recession \'victim\'

As chairman and co-owner of a Nordic boatbuilder I would like to point out that as far as I know, no Scandinavian/Nordic government gives any subsidies whatsoever to the builders. On the contrary, payroll taxes are among the highest i Europe in these countries.

Maybe if the UK had joined the Euro, things would be different ?


Andreas

 

[Guest]

Re: not quite

Are you finding an argument which doesn't exist? Petermd said that "the directors and SOME of the workforce". It's not an argument with the skills of the workforce. The directors orgainse who does what and when - they're the first up against the wall, which is why they're paid more etc etc. It's surely not in doubt that the brits can build a great boat but if the directors haven't set the pricing right or whatever, then such skills can't keep the business going.

I am not as expert as peter in this example. But I am fairly suprised at some boatbuilders attitudes at shows etc, not dissimilar to those of snooty brit motorcycle manufacturers which banned motorbikes from the senior staff car park, as I understand. A director should for example, take a walk in a customers shoes, perhaps at a boat show, perhaps elsewhere around the business. Taking ages to answer the phone, giving unrealistic deadlines, being strangely superior rather than friendly at a boat show boat show, all need sorting out. Try calling the manufacturer or dealer of your boat right now. IMHO the phone should be answered in three rings - it's the main entry point for all customers. Most Brit companies can't even get this right. Unfortunately, of course, this all starts at school, where keepingyour head down, being uncritical of any around you and doing nice neat handwriting are rewarded with 10/10. Suggesting a better alternative or doing a suitable quality of work brands you as one of the awkward squad.

 

[robp]

Re: Another recession \'victim\'

Why is it, that as a race, we cannot accept that we have an attitude problem to volume production and winning? The indignant replies to this posting, indicate how many think that the demise of so many industries in which we were once strong, is always someone else's fault. Yes, we need to think about the effect on employee's lives but that has to start with management's complete re-think about modern markets and production. The die hard sailors and manufacturers all say, "I'd rather be out in a blow in a solid British Yacht than a Benjanbav". Well soon they won't have the choice. Yes if H.R. and others can do it, why can't we? It's because we think we know best and we don't. The price of Stirling is a problem yes but do American Hunter know that? They opened up here.

They are so many analogies flying around, so here's another.. Look at who we got as England's Soccer manager and what he's done..

 

[Twister_Ken]

Motor boats

Why is it that 'we' can't build sailing yachts successfuly, yet we are one of the most successful builders of motor yachts? Take a look at Sunseeker next ime you are in Poole.

BTW, I've no idea why this should be, except the usual answer of 'management'. Maybe sail boat builders go in to for the romance of the sea, whereas motorboat people do it for the money.

 

[incognito]

Re: Another recession \'victim\'

Yes, I too looked at that boat. It was raining that day, and the boat leaked all over the place. The attitude of Paul ?? was quite incredible.

I have no idea how Warrior worked other than that small encounter, but I have considerable first-hand experience of why the motor and machine tool industries suffered so badly. It was bad management, reluctance to invest in new machinery and short-term return requirements. The workforce bore most of the blame, but they were not 'empowered' to make a difference (modern term, wish it had been around at the time, it describes things exactly).

What tends to stifle SME in UK is still the same ( the three mentioned above), with banks being the most able to throttle a company when cash-flow is poor, but the order book and factory floor full. The workforce are still pretty much unable to make sod all difference to the success or failure of the enterprise.

 

[BarryD]

Re: Another recession \'victim\'

Incognito - you seem to be taking the stance that it is the fat cat management to blame allways? Its a tough time in my industry sector, revenue is down, the clients want more for less etc.. the big hitters are playing a waiting game. If I suggest a pay freeze / cut then my people start to walk. If nothings coming in then I can't pay out.

It's not always mamangement who make the decision to close thje company.

Barry D.

 

[incognito]

Re: Another recession \'victim\'

Well, I can generalise like mad, but clearly say nothing about your specific case. Probably you are suffering from short-term return expectation by your funding sources. If your business is fundamentally sound, ie there is a demand for your product, and you can satisfy the demand, then, if you were in France or Germany, there is a better chance that a longer-term view of your business by bank or investors would result in enough cash cushion to weather short-term cash-flow storms. Here, the view is rarely long-term, and, often, businesses are offering a great product where there is little demand, or great competition (umbrellas in Summer, Christmas cards in January).

The UK boat-building industry, from my VERY limited viewpoint, seems to have a good workforce - but the tools they are using are often rather old and not the most efficient - a tool that makes a job take 60% the time the old tool took will enhance the worker productivity by 40% - compare that with the extra productivity (per £) of a 20% demotivating wage cut.

This is not the forum for this sort of serious talk - my wish is that everybody building boats in our idiosyncratic industry should survive the current recession.

 

[incognito]

a PS on this topic...

As I have sounded off elsewhere on the general malaise that hits bigger UK industry- I want to redress the balance on the SME, re delivery on time etc. If you look at Morgan (who were advised to expand and capitalise on the popularity of their singularly English product, and decided firmly against) you can see that they have a desirable (not necessarily the best!) product, they do not deliver on time (ex-stock is not even in their language) but they concentrate on quality and keep the product desirable by being exclusive.

Would it be unfair to suggest that some of the boatbuilders have failed due to efforts to expand in a time of demand- only to be left rather short when demand falls? Some of the comments about build quality are such that I cannot comment, except in the case of Westerly. If they were as bad as suggested, then I need new spectacles!

 

[billmacfarlane]

Don\'t blame yourself !

Don't blame yourself for buying an HR Peter. You're hard earned cash shouldn't be used to keep an ailing industry afloat , but rather used to buy the best product you can. I've also bought a Swedish boat and that was also delivered on time and exactly to the spec as promised. It also has excellent build quality.

 

[Guest]

Just for the record

I took delivery of a new moody in August, yes it was late but so was the Sweden yachts opposite me in the marina. I am well pleased with the boat, it has some niggles but the Moody man in a van has sorted all but a few that will get sorted when we lift out at Swanwick. Moodys are still selling boats not a lot wrong with quality and they are British. Niche players in any market like Rival Bowman and others are always the first to suffer in a down turn. Westerly had other problems when they sunk for the final time like look how many models they were producing with not a lot of common componants between them. Marine Projects, cant remember their new name, use many common products between the princess range and the moody range. My cleats have been much admired for their size and quality they originate on the Princess 40ft plus. It might be fashionable to knock British companies but there are still some in business and looking after their customers. I will now pack my soap box away!!!!

Pete