Another Brick in the Wall.

[BurnitBlue]

Just noticed that Hellinic Civil Aviation has extended entry ban for non EU citizens (with exceptions) until November 8th. Note the word citizen. As this 2nd wave gets worse I still have no doubt that UK citizens will join the exception list when necessary even if the extended ban will last until Spring 2021.

This will probably not affect most UK citizens but it may affect me with a decision I must make before the Swedish winter takes hold. Should I do what most will do and wait and see? Or should I take a pessamistic but pro-active view and assume that a non EU citizens resident in Sweden will suffer a double whammy and not be allowed to enter Greece until next August or even later.

The problem decision is that I own two boats, one in Sweden currently mothballed, and the other in Greece. The Swedish boat is here in my garden and needs me to start preparation before winter ready for a Spring launch. The boat in Greece may yet spend another lonely season in a boatyard. I am leaning towards the preparation of my Swedish boat simply because I have control and not be at the mercy of political motivation. I am not asking for advice but comments would be welcome. For instance, where is Merlins Crystal Ball and can I access it on line.

 

[KompetentKrew]

Note the word citizen.

I think a yank was moaning about this on one of the Faceache groups this week.

They've not been to the US in a long time but, berthed in Gibraltar, they hired a car and got denied entry at La Linea.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I think a yank was moaning about this on one of the Faceache groups this week.

They've not been to the US in a long time but, berthed in Gibraltar, they hired a car and got denied entry at La Linea.

That is a scary situation. The EU has a blankett ban on non EU citezens who must rely on a variable exceptions list. Only today, för instance the list was modified to add some countries to a seperate national list (Greek) that demanded a clear medical certificate issued less than 72 hours before entry. Crazy and gesture politics. In 72 hours a traveller during a tortuous route could be promoted from a clear certificate to deaths door before reaching the border yet a piece of paper allows passage across the border. Basically, the only safe rule is to close the border. I am happy to take a small risk, but I appreciate that inhabitants may not be happy with importing my risk.

 

[nortada]

I note your your use of the word citizen but think you may be referring to a resident of an EU state - a very different animal. I am one such.

Citizens of a state have unlimited rights in that country. I am a citizen of the UK and for example, cannot be deported. I am not a citizen of any other country.

The EU is not a country so I have never been really sure of what an EU citizen is; even if it is quoted on my Portuguese Residency

Conversely, registered residents have a number of prescribed privileges, which fall well short of citizenship.

My understanding, you can only be a citizen of a single recognised country and this makes a nonsense of EU citizenship. They/we can be deported!

Your citizenship is identified by your passport (or right to a passport) and to the best of my knowledge, the EU (much as it may wish to) doesn’t issue passports

Interested to hear other thoughts.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I note your your use of the word citizen but think you may be referring to a resident of an EU state - a very different animal. I am one such.

Citizens of a state have unlimited rights in that country. I am a citizen of the UK and for example, cannot be deported. I am not a citizen of any other country.

The EU is not a country so I have never been really sure of what an EU citizen is; even if it is quoted on my Portuguese Residency

Conversely, registered residents have a number of prescribed privileges, which fall well short of citizenship.

My understanding, you can only be a citizen of a single recognised country and this makes a nonsense of EU citizenship. They/we can be deported!

Your citizenship is identified by your passport (or right to a passport) and to the best of my knowledge, the EU (much as it may wish to) doesn’t issue passports

Interested to hear other thoughts.

That's a good point. I had never questioned the term EU citizen before. I think you are correct that the legal term must be citizen of an EU member state. Maybe EU citizen is just short hand or wishfull thinking because it cannot exist unless the passport specifically addresses the term. My uk passport states that I am a British Citizen. This leads me to wonder if the EU has the authority to over-ride member states. I suspect that the EU may be nothing more than a clearing house for various treaties. After all, if the EU is not a country how can it exist to organise and punish transgression except by fines and threats from the court of european justice. Very interesting take Nortada. I suspect that British attitude was based on our traditional position about rule by commen consent. The EU became so large that individual members and their opinions have been swamped and is such a mix of cultures that conformity is impossible. Change is impossible because 27 countries could never be persuaded to go in the same direction to make a change acceptable to all. Dam, you have turned my little world upside down. Time for a re-think.

Now I understand why folk laugh at the idea of a European Army. Who will be the Chief of the Combined Armies? A beaurocratic nightmare.

 

[KompetentKrew]

The EU is not a country so I have never been really sure of what an EU citizen is; even if it is quoted on my Portuguese Residency

An EU citizen is a citizen of any EU member state.

Link: EU citizenship | European Union

 

[Graham376]

An EU citizen is a citizen of any EU member state.

Link: EU citizenship | European Union

And a person can be a citizen of more than one state.

 

[Graham376]

That's a good point. I had never questioned the term EU citizen before. I think you are correct that the legal term must be citizen of an EU member state. Maybe EU citizen is just short hand or wishfull thinking because it cannot exist unless the passport specifically addresses the term.

My passport says I'm a UK citizen, my Portuguese residence card says I'm a citizen of the European Union. Generally, when border controls are activated, residents have the right to travel to their registered country of residence even if in some cases that includes passing through another state, that happened in the last lockdown. Although the Portuguese/Spanish borders were closed except for commercial traffic and workers, tourists with flights booked out of Portugal were allowed to cross from Spain.

 

[sailaboutvic]

What generally should happen and what happen in real life can be a very different thing as we sew last year , not everyone was allowed to cross one country to get to another to get back to their home country over land and only a long time after the lock down thing got a bit easier.
Many cruisers where allowed to carry on sailing while out at sea but many also had problems when it came to cross boarder when supplies where needed and in places like Turnisa in some harbour there wasn't allowed to leave the harbour.
Burnit blue I was expecting to read that Pink Floyd has released their song again .

 

[syvictoria]

And a person can be a citizen of more than one state.

+1. And they can also be resident of none (EU states, that is).

 

[nortada]

And a person can be a citizen of more than one state.

I stand corrected, apparently, in some cases, some countries permit dual citizenship but this doesn't change the main thrust of my earlier post, that residency and citizenship are very different beasts and are regularly interchanged mis-used.

The EU is not a country, just a treaty, so despite how it may wish to use the term, I don’t see how it can issue citizenship in the accepted sense of the word but it seems toI have always classed myself a British citizen, legally resident in Portugal, a country in the EU.

It will be interesting to see what happens to it’s ‘citizens’ if/when the EU becomes sufficiently federated to become a state.

Suspect, I may not be around to see this.

With it’s overtone towards Brexit and all of that (not a subject I debate), possibly this should be the subject of a new thread in a different place

 

[syvictoria]

I stand corrected, apparently, in some cases, some countries permit dual citizenship but this doesn't change the main thrust of my earlier post, that residency and citizenship are very different beasts and are regularly interchanged mis-used.

The EU is not a country, just a treaty, so despite how it may wish to use the term, I don’t see how it can issue citizenship in the accepted sense of the word but it seems toI have always classed myself a British citizen, legally resident in Portugal, a country in the EU.

Surely it's as simple as...

You have a passport - you're a citizen.
You have a residency permit - you're a resident.
If you have either of the above for an EU state, you can ALSO be termed a citizen and/or resident of the EU as well as the same for the individual country/countries.
If you have neither - you are merely a visitor.

Simple!

 

[nortada]

Surely it's as simple as...

You have a passport - you're a citizen.
You have a residency permit - you're a resident.
If you have either of the above for an EU state, you can ALSO be termed a citizen and/or resident of the EU as well as the same for the individual country/countries.
If you have neither - you are merely a visitor.

Simple!

EU doesn't issue passports - yet!

If you do not have a passport, unless you are a refugee or illegal immigrant, you don't get in.

 

[syvictoria]

EU doesn't issue passports - yet!

I of course meant a passport of an EU state! (And I suspect that you know that!)

 

[nortada]

I of course meant a passport of an EU state! (And I suspect that you know that!)

No just an observation.

If the EU survives to statehood and starts to issue passports, will individual member countries still be allowed to issue their own national passports?

 

[Graham376]

Surely it's as simple as...

You have a passport - you're a citizen.
You have a residency permit - you're a resident.
If you have either of the above for an EU state, you can ALSO be termed a citizen and/or resident of the EU as well as the same for the individual country/countries.
If you have neither - you are merely a visitor.
Simple!

There are variations though in what rights one has depending on whether citizen or resident. Being a citizen of the EU allows unlimited freedom of movement throughout the EU whereas residence in a state applies only to that state and does not give that right.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Burnit blue I was expecting to read that Pink Floyd has released their song again .

Sorry about that. I should have titled the thread "Another political brick in the political wall that we will have to climb over in 2021" or "Despite boots made for walking we will have to use them for climbing over a wall. Or "The wall of despotic barrier rules will take my breath away". Or (for you vic) "I did it my way, a tunnel will dig under the highest wall". Anyway, you will agree I have no talent for this so I have to keep it simple. Do I hear a sigh of relief.

We pause for a moment while Vjc scans his collection of "Country and Western" for a suitable reply.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Sorry about that. I should have titled the thread "Another political brick in the political wall that we will have to climb over in 2021" or "Despite boots made for walking we will have to use them for climbing over a wall. Or "The wall of despotic barrier rules will take my breath away". Or (for you vic) "I did it my way, a tunnel will dig under the highest wall". Anyway, you will agree I have no talent for this so I have to keep it simple. Do I hear a sigh of relief.

We pause for a moment while Vjc scans his collection of "Country and Western" for a suitable reply.

Maybe if you get out of Greece life may get a bit easier

 

[stranded]

No just an observation.

If the EU survives to statehood and starts to issue passports, will individual member countries still be allowed to issue their own national passports?

I should think the question of being “allowed” would not enter into it as they will voluntarily have ceded that responsibility to the EU.

 

[nortada]

I should think the question of being “allowed” would not enter into it as they will voluntarily have ceded that responsibility to the EU.

Really!

Can’t see proud states ceding issuing passports to a central authority; more likely it would be decided by a majority vote.

It was interesting to see how quickly countries in the Schengen Zone, sensibly reimposed border controls to try to restrict the spread of Covid.

Sorry lured into a bit of thread drift.

Back to topic, most expats and long term visitors have taken steps to ameliorate the impact of the impending restrictions on freedom of movement around the EU next year.