Another Battery Question

[Sishoe]

My Targa 64 has 8 batteries, 4 for domestic 4 for engine start and runs at 24v
The domestic batteries' voltage drops quite quick when the shore power isn't connected, even when there is little load on them.
So i imagine they're knackered.
The sales brochure details all batteries are 12v 180AH, I have fitted 160AH Gel made by DYNO Batteries and fitted in 2014 when the boat was based in the Netherlands, these appear a size smaller than originally speccd by FL.
Would anyone know what battery manufacturer/supplier FL might of used in 2008, i'd rather try and source and fit correct spec replacements, Gel v's AGM etc, cant imagine they were standard wet lead acids.
Is a 3 - 4 year lifespan reasonable for a Gel battery? I thought they were supposed to last much longer.
Also the Mastervolt charger holds the battery voltages at just over 28V, is this not a bit high?
all advice greatly appreciated

 

[jrudge]

Having had a new 2014 Fairline with failed batteries 2 years later the view of the dealer was they were fitted to a price shall we say.

Opinions on here vary. That they are all he same and buy cheapest ( which is best if you abuse hem and let them run flat ) to they are not all the same and you get what you pay for. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle

As far as I know gel and flooded have different settings on your charger

 

[Sishoe]

Having had a new 2014 Fairline with failed batteries 2 years later the view of the dealer was they were fitted to a price shall we say.

Opinions on here vary. That they are all he same and buy cheapest ( which is best if you abuse hem and let them run flat ) to they are not all the same and you get what you pay for. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle

As far as I know gel and flooded have different settings on your charger

Interesting, just read about Gel Charging Profile, if chargers have not been set correctly, premature failure occurs.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Is a 3 - 4 year lifespan reasonable for a Gel battery? I thought they were supposed to last much longer.
Also the Mastervolt charger holds the battery voltages at just over 28V, is this not a bit high?

I also fitted a new set of gel batteries in my Med based Ferretti 630 in April 2014 and also to my surprise, I had to replace the domestic ones this winter despite the fact that I am quite careful about battery usage. So yes, 3-4yrs seems to be par for the course. I also have noticed that my Mastervolt charger shows 27-28V at times which seems a bit scary but I have been told by somebody who should know that this is normal. I am no expert so perhaps somebody who knows about these things could comment

 

[Hurricane]

My belief is that all motorboats have this issue.
We don't realise how much power we actually use on board.
The big issue for me was that I didn't put back in the electrical energy that I had taken out.
On a boat the size of the OP's, you would expect three fridges and other electrical equipment drawing in excess of 15amps at 24v.
It is worth doing the sums.
4x 160ah batteries = 640ah
Only 50% of that is useful
That leaves 320ah
So at a draw of 15amps, the batteries will be fully used after 21 hours.
In my experience, that is OK for the first 2 or three days away from shore power but for extended days away, you need to get more back into the batteries than just a couple of hours generator charging in the morning and the evening (which is what we used to do).
Personally, I don't like the generator running all the time.
The big issue is that the batteries charge quickest when they are most empty.
As they become charged, the amount of current that they take drops off exponentially.
For example, when my domestic bank is empty, the charger puts back in 90amps - but after an hour that rate drops to less than 40 amps.
After 2 hours it is less than 20 amps.
To finish charging, the generator/charge process needs to run for the rest of the day.
If you are only away from shore power for a couple of nights, you can probably get away with it but unless you can "put back what you take out", after a few days the batteries will get dangerously low.
This leads to irreversible damage - believe me - I've been there - lots of times.
Our solution has been to install solar panels that will take over from the generator after breakfast and finish the charging process during the rest of the day.

Some more statistics
Last year, I considered that our daily electrical consumption was about 7Kw hours (per 24 hour day)
Generally, my solar panel monitor reports that the solar panels out back about 3.5Kw hours (during the sunlight period).
That leaves about 3.5Kw hours for the generator to put back - and it does that easily when the batteries are at their lowest charge.

This year, I changed the big galley fridge (a Dometic marine fridge supplied by Princess in the original build) with a domestic high efficiency A*** one.
The outcome has been significant.
I reckon that I have saved around 6 amps at 24 volts with this new fridge - the old one used two compressors - the new one uses one (smaller compressor) so it is easy to see why this saving is possible.

 

[Richard10002]

Would anyone know what battery manufacturer/supplier FL might of used in 2008, i'd rather try and source and fit correct spec replacements, Gel v's AGM etc, cant imagine they were standard wet lead acids.

Also the Mastervolt charger holds the battery voltages at just over 28V, is this not a bit high?

There is no "correct spec" replacement... what the builder fitted was whatever suited them at the time.

Trojan T105s are reputed to be good quality and have a good life if you look after them. Rolls are reputed to be among the best. However, if you dont know what you are doing with batteries, unless you get lucky, it is generally suggested that you buy cheap and often.

I have a 12V system and am currently charging my Rolls Flooded Lead acid at the recommended 15V, (which would be 30V in a 24V system). Trojan recommend 14.7V in a 12V system, which would double to 29.4V in a 24V system.

As far as I know, AGM and Gel batteries should be charged at lower voltages, but I have never seen it suggested that this should be less than 14V in a 12V system, (thus 28V in a 24V system).

Float voltages are usually 13.5V or a bit more, in a 12V system, so 27V or so in a 24V system.... so 28V doesnt seem too high, and probably not high enough if charging, rather than floating.

Hope that makes some sense

 

[Sishoe]

So it would appear I can fit whatever I want within reason. It wouldn't matter if I replaced the existing Gel with AGM for instance.

Obviously battery size and terminal location are critical.

 

[jrudge]

So it would appear I can fit whatever I want within reason. It wouldn't matter if I replaced the existing Gel with AGM for instance.

Obviously battery size and terminal location are critical.

As long as the charger is set to the correct type ( assuming you have a selector) then yes.

Personally I would buy on price!

 

[MapisM]

all advice greatly appreciated

Since you ask for ALL advice, on top of all the suggestions already given, my 2c is to get rid of one of the engine starting battery banks and add those 2 batteries recovered to the domestic bank, which is a MUCH better use of them.
I'm aware that the setup with one starting battery bank for each engine is popular among Brit builders, but it doesn't make any sense, imho.

 

[luptonj]

Since you ask for ALL advice, on top of all the suggestions already given, my 2c is to get rid of one of the engine starting battery banks and add those 2 batteries recovered to the domestic bank, which is a MUCH better use of them.
I'm aware that the setup with one starting battery bank for each engine is popular among Brit builders, but it doesn't make any sense, imho.

I find it quite useful to have separate batteries for each engine, have both alternators charging all 3 banks so if 1 battery is dead I can start the other engine first.
Just need to make sure I start the engines in alternate patterns so I can spot if a battery or alternator is on the way out.

 

[petem]

Since you ask for ALL advice, on top of all the suggestions already given, my 2c is to get rid of one of the engine starting battery banks and add those 2 batteries recovered to the domestic bank, which is a MUCH better use of them.
I'm aware that the setup with one starting battery bank for each engine is popular among Brit builders, but it doesn't make any sense, imho.

To be fair, Fairline don't split the battery banks 50/50 (not on my boat at least), I have two batteries covering the domestic system and port engine starting and a single battery dedicated to starboard engine starting.

However, technology has moved on so one solution (for those with smaller engines like mine) could be do away with the dedicated starboard engine starting battery and keep a mini jump starter pack on board for emergencies (some of these are no bigger than a mobile phone power bank). See http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/accessories-tyres/92728/best-mini-jump-starter-packs-2018 for some examples.

 

[admillington]

My Targa 64 has 8 batteries, 4 for domestic 4 for engine start and runs at 24v
The domestic batteries' voltage drops quite quick when the shore power isn't connected, even when there is little load on them.
So i imagine they're knackered.
The sales brochure details all batteries are 12v 180AH, I have fitted 160AH Gel made by DYNO Batteries and fitted in 2014 when the boat was based in the Netherlands, these appear a size smaller than originally speccd by FL.
Would anyone know what battery manufacturer/supplier FL might of used in 2008, i'd rather try and source and fit correct spec replacements, Gel v's AGM etc, cant imagine they were standard wet lead acids.
Is a 3 - 4 year lifespan reasonable for a Gel battery? I thought they were supposed to last much longer.
Also the Mastervolt charger holds the battery voltages at just over 28V, is this not a bit high?
all advice greatly appreciated[/QUOTE

I believe they used http://www.platinuminternational.com/marine-agm-batteries

that is what we fitted to my 2008 Phantom 50

 

[Sishoe]

My Targa 64 has 8 batteries, 4 for domestic 4 for engine start and runs at 24v
The domestic batteries' voltage drops quite quick when the shore power isn't connected, even when there is little load on them.
So i imagine they're knackered.
The sales brochure details all batteries are 12v 180AH, I have fitted 160AH Gel made by DYNO Batteries and fitted in 2014 when the boat was based in the Netherlands, these appear a size smaller than originally speccd by FL.
Would anyone know what battery manufacturer/supplier FL might of used in 2008, i'd rather try and source and fit correct spec replacements, Gel v's AGM etc, cant imagine they were standard wet lead acids.
Is a 3 - 4 year lifespan reasonable for a Gel battery? I thought they were supposed to last much longer.
Also the Mastervolt charger holds the battery voltages at just over 28V, is this not a bit high?
all advice greatly appreciated[/QUOTE

I believe they used http://www.platinuminternational.com/marine-agm-batteries

that is what we fitted to my 2008 Phantom 50

Thanks, will check them out.
AGM makes sense.

 

[Richard10002]

So it would appear I can fit whatever I want within reason. It wouldn't matter if I replaced the existing Gel with AGM for instance.

Obviously battery size and terminal location are critical.

Yes! it's already been mentioned that you must have the ability to charge them correctly.

 

[Richard10002]

Since you ask for ALL advice, on top of all the suggestions already given, my 2c is to get rid of one of the engine starting battery banks and add those 2 batteries recovered to the domestic bank, which is a MUCH better use of them.
I'm aware that the setup with one starting battery bank for each engine is popular among Brit builders, but it doesn't make any sense, imho.

I'm on a narrowboat, and not a huge engined motor yacht, which may be significant but.... I've just bought 3 new Rolls S-170 12V 130Ah batteries for my domestic use. As a bit of a test, I connected one of them as a starter battery, and it worked fine - the engine started.

So... the chances are that, if your single starter battery failed, you could easily hook up to your domestic bank, (or swap one out), to start the engine.

 

[MapisM]

the chances are that, if your single starter battery failed, you could easily hook up to your domestic bank, (or swap one out), to start the engine.

Yup, that was my point exactly.
Normally, boats with two battery banks (engine starting+domestic) also have a button on the p/house to activate a relais and put the two banks in parallel for emergency engine start, so there is full redundancy for engines start with no need to "waste" a second starting battery bank.
Btw, I'm talking of banks rather than single batteries because I'm also referring to 24V boats, where it takes at least two 12V batteries also for engine start...