Anchors. I hate to do this but...

[GrantKing]

Hi Rex,

I've been looking at your site and in particular the video "Next Generation Anchor Environment Destruction" at http://www.anchorright.com.au/sarca/video

A few quick questions

1. As you may have seen, we have constantly been told that cutting slots in metal causes problems with modern anchors. Unfortunately I have been unable to get any explanation about the nature of those "problems". Whether it is that the steel suddenly cracks, mysteriously bends, or even that the anchor spontaneously disintegrates and magically reappears in the next bay as a boiled egg, hasn't been explained.
As you have several slots in your product, I would be interested to hear what your views are.

2. I like the idea of the retrieval slot. However, when overnighting I would be worried about the anchor ending up the "wrong way" round following a turn of the tide.
Do you have any recommendation to avoid this problem?

3. In the video I think that you say that you made up your first prototype with the concave (Spade) blade way back in 1992....well before the other "new anchors" were introduced in the mid 2000's. Have I got that right?


Incidentally, I think its great that you have published copies of all the certificates which you have been given on your site. It makes it much easier to see exactly what you have been awarded.

Rigger,

I have read this thread with interest and have a few comments to make:

I spent 2 years as production manager for Rocna with numerous visits to China and to the NZ facility that was manufacturing for them.

While I have parted company with them last year and have absolutely no respect for them and the way they operate I will vigorously defend the Chinese factory and staff who make the Rocna.

The Chinese shanks are cut using high tech water cutters and the only heat applied during the whole assembly process is during welding. Their welds are so strong that they will not break and the anchors will not fall or rip apart unless extreme and impossible forces are applied in a test situation with the express purpose of destroying them. Normal use , even in hurricane force winds and seas will not break them, they may bend, but they do not break.

These new generation anchors will all bend shanks occasionally due to the tight hold they have in the seabed and with them being reluctant to move around in the mud you end up getting extreme forces applied to the shanks in a sideways direction, then they bend rather than release from the seabed. I have a collection of photos of bent shanks due only to this reason.

It is a great anchor there is no doubt about that. Craig is passionate about it and nothing will change his attitude or his mannr, its just the way he is.

You have raised many valid points and errors that needed to be raised, but you will not be able to persuade them to change their way of promoting the product.

I too am surprised that the CEO has not replied to any of this thread especially when he has had a long standing fear of discussion boards and the harm he perceived topics like this doing to his business. The trouble is if you stick your head in the sand too long someone will come along and expose your shortcomings.

 

[Djbangi]

Grant

An interesting and powerful comment on Chinese production. Really bizarre that they wanted this kept a secret. I do not think that anyone was commenting on the quality of Chinese production - we are all more than happy with our cameras, ipods and laptops and equally impressed with China's technical prowess in a whole range of technologies. It was noted that most, all, product coming from China was 'competitively' priced but there did not seem the same price advantage from Rocna. What was being mentioned was control, and it seems you have left - so what is the quality and frequency of control now. Ipads are made with Apple staff on site which is one reason we are happy, is this the case with Rocna?


But it is also interesting that you comment that the mass of verbage is how they promote their product, forget paying for advertising just get into the forums. Not sure if YBW will view this with much generousity - given that the forum contributions of other manufacturers are carefully vetted for commercial content - subliminal advertising is alive and well.

But it was my understanding that it was Rocna, now that we know the forum debates are Rocna's advertising and not the rantings of a wild individual, who commented about Manson's cutting of high tensile steels. I am not aware anyone else has passed a comment so I am not sure why it has been mentioned. Comment has been passed about pre-heating the cast fluke - which you imply does not occur as you suggest the only heat is that of welding. But I'm a simple yachtie and maybe I missed something.

But it is reassuring that Rocna are using high tensile steels - is there any reason why the grade is not declared. Manson and Anchor Right both use Bisalloy 80 which has a tensile strength 4 times that of mild steel, so a steel with a strength only 20% higher could be called 'hi-tensile steel' - so maybe we are none the wiser.

Now I have mentioned three anchor makers and to retain balance, I am sure Tie Down (Danforth), Fortress, Spade, Lewmar (CQR, Delta, Claw), Ultra - who have I missed this time? Raya, XYZ - will welcome this refereshing transparancy.

 

[idpnd]

I spent 2 years as production manager for Rocna with numerous visits to China and to the NZ facility that was manufacturing for them.

While I have parted company with them last year and have absolutely no respect for them and the way they operate I will vigorously defend the Chinese factory and staff who make the Rocna.

The Caterpillar and Alice looked at each other for some time in silence: at last the Caterpillar took the hookah out of its mouth, and addressed her in a languid, sleepy voice.
'Whoooo are youuu?' said the Caterpillar.

 

[GrantKing]

The Caterpillar and Alice looked at each other for some time in silence: at last the Caterpillar took the hookah out of its mouth, and addressed her in a languid, sleepy voice.
'Whoooo are youuu?' said the Caterpillar.

Picking up the discarded hookah Alice took a big hit and declared....Mexican Gold!!!!! why surely you should aim higher....here try this fine Shanghai opium...if you want quality.

Who I am is as plain as my name and what I did is clearly in my posting.

 

[Djbangi]

Opacity

And Alice replied,

'But I am you friend, I'm honest, you can trust me'.

The caterpillar lay there, he looked over the hookah and, looking through the smoke (he probably wondered why the mirrors were gone) simply smiled knowingly! Somniferously he murmered 'time will tell my dear, as we wait - maybe we could just grow old together'.

 

[idpnd]

Stranger things have happened!

While I have parted company with them last year and have absolutely no respect for them and the way they operate

Would you care to elaborate on that?

 

[Keen_Ed]

Amused to see that this anchor:

has done this:

 

[noelex]

Amused to see that this anchor:

has done this:

I have seen a few CQR anchors drag, but never that far.

 

[idpnd]

Amused to see that this anchor:

has done this:

I hope that's a GENUINE CQR

 

[GrantKing]

Stranger things have happened!



Would you care to elaborate on that?

Not yet in a public forum sorry but there is much fact to be revealed soon.

 

[GrantKing]

I have seen a few CQR anchors drag, but never that far.

Must have been one hell of a ficklewind

 

[CONGO]

Hi Rigger,
Thank you for your question, this silence is golden, hope it will last, cutting slots in steel can affect its strength but it depends on the grade of steel whether it be high tensile spring steel mild steel and the like, Super Sarca and Sarca Excel are two very different anchors in construction and design.
The Super sarca is constructed with what is called 350 grade mild steel, comes in about three different grades 350 being the highest, the higher the grade the stronger it is.

Mild steel is very easy to work with, great penetration with the welds and is a lot less expensive, it can be laser or profile cut without effecting the strength of the steel, being less expensive doesn’t necessarily mean it to be inferior, for example if we were to use bismuth 12 mm thick which is a grade of spring steel, grader blade material if you like, in 360 grade mild steel we would have to go thicker 16 mm to achieve a similar strength.

But no, do not laser cut bismuth unless under water, excessive heat will deplete much of its strength, water cutting is another option, at the end of the day we have to meet a strict proof test standard to satisfy the authorities, any anchor manufacturer if he has any faith in his product will have greater proof loads applied until the product yields, that is what we do.

Whether you are constructing out of 360 grade mild steel or bismuth the end result is what counts.

There are further advantages with bismuth, being of spring steel it has great flexing properties over mild steel, but there is always a trade of, should you bend your bismuth anchor shank you will simply not straighten it out on your boat, it will be a press job, however if you bend a mild steel shank it may be possible. In saying all of that anchor shanks will always be bent one way or another, we have been manufacturing anchors for over fifteen years and sold many thousands, I could count the amount of bent shanks one hand, if any customer of ours bends a shank regardless of how long he has had his anchor we would simply replace it at no cost.

Rigger you have touched on tender subject, our trip release, many will have you believe that the trip release will trip in change of tide when you least expect it, well in all of the years that we have been selling this product we have seen no evidence of this, the S/Sarca trip release was indeed an invention, many will argue that anchors for many years have had a slide rail similar to the S/sarca, true but they do not work the same, slide rail anchors before S/sarca all were retrieved from the rear by pulling the anchor direct ally reward, sure those designs can do exactly what you fear.

Our trip release was the first design that actually stopped at a balance point, does not go to the rear, to operate this trip release you have to come directly over the top of the anchor, tie of the rope and drive forward, the D shackle slides rearward to a specific balance point that allows upward pressure to the front of the fluke not the rear , if the fluke won’t budge added pressure by motoring forward then starts to lift the rear of the S/sarca until it is at an angle that it slides out, the moment it releases it automatically resets as the bulk weight at the rear wants to drop immediately.

So, if you boat swings around in the tide you will find S/sarca will simply follow you around screwing itself deeper, one of the reasons the S/sarca’s didn’t let go in tsunami that hit Phuket, one of those guys was sitting in whirlpool from the back wash and S/sarca never looked like breaking out.

If you should sale directly over the anchor in a change of tide most anchors can and will break out, no different with S/sarca other than when the D shackle slides to the central point, there is less chance of breaking the anchor out from here as the leverage is halved from that of a D shackle fixed to the front of the shank, so now the forces have increased and the S/sarca regardless breaks out, because the D shackle is still central not running all the way to the rear it stands the S/sarca up on its rear, the mud weed starts to fall off, the boat continues to sail over the anchor, the D shackle is then dragged back up the shank and the anchor will then be pulled and land upside dropping of reaming mud and junk .

Within a meter the anchor will once again roll over and slam in, if you are still not convinced you can fit a stainless bolt through the slot, slide it to the rear and just lock it up, when anchoring overnight you can crack the nut slide the bolt forward behind the D shackle and lock up the nut. Far easier than having to change D shackle locations to take advantage of the trip release. Try changing D shackle location on a 30 K.G anchor, bet you will be diving for it
You can check out the history on types of trip release mechanisms and you will find S/sarca was definitely first with its concept, a true invention that now sees it popping on, no I won’t go there ,keep it happy.

There were many proto type sarca anchors in concave design before I launched the Sarca in 1996 then again there were also many proto type Sarca in convex designs as well.
Sorry this is so long winded.

Regards.
Rex.

 

[idpnd]

Not yet in a public forum sorry but there is much fact to be revealed soon.

We do love FACTS

 

[westernman]

Amused to see that this anchor:

has done this:

Wow! I knew CQRs could drag a bit from time to time, but to drag that far really is something

 

[noelex]

Hi Rigger,
if any customer of ours bends a shank regardless of how long he has had his anchor we would simply replace it at no cost.

Thanks Rex and welcome to the forum I think the input from anchor manufactures is very helpful.
I have been trying to pin down anchor manufactures on there warranty conditions. Most offer a "lifetime warranty", but this means different things.
If you go back on the posts (if you have a spare couple of weeks ) you will see replies from Fortress, Manson and Rocna on what would happen in the event of a bent anchor.

You have mentioned a bent shank, can you tell us what would happen with a bent tip. Would this be replaced at no cost ? What shipping would be involved ?.

 

[CONGO]

Hi Davy Mac,

Thank you, Yes you could be forgiven by thinking the Excel is a, should I say it---no looks similar to a Delta, the Delta I believe was the first real breakthrough in anchor technology, and still is an excellent anchor design, solid shank was a major improvement, many have wondered why their CQR worked so well for years and the gradually become more difficult to set and eventually buying another anchor. Pivoting shanks they wear, a small amount of wear in the pivot will have a noticeable setting effect, a large amount of wear and you are not be able set your CQR unless you set it on a short scope and only then run out your five to one or more, should it break out chances are it won’t reset, Delta solved the problem.

A lot of these lazy old CQR’s make good comparison tests for some, don’t through it away if you have the right contact it may be worth something?

Why the Excel, simply because more boats are being designed with pull pit arrangements, hoop style anchors won’t fit through, Delta is a plough, Excel is not, and the Excel fluke is what I call a single plain fluke, it forces the substrate upward and over the rear filling in behind it, both Delta and Excel can easily be compared in how each design bury into the substrate in our environment DVD on our web site www.anchorright.com.au

Yes Excel has a turned down toe not unlike S/sarca and cutting Edges from front to back, the Excel name is not just there for looks it too plays a roll, there is a lot within the physics of the Excel that is not consistent with the Delta, sorry about it looking similar to Delta but if you are going to design something in anchor technology that has a generic appearance then it is all ways going to look like something before it.

You may not believe it but this Excel anchor gave me far more headaches to get right than the Sarca, it truly is an incredible performer, yea I know I’m biased, not to many pats on the back for an inventor, might as well look after myself encouragements got to come from somewhere, like all things you have to try it the only way you will know.

It has been said there has been no independent testing, well take a look at our web site, on and above at what some may call marketing the best independent test of the lot is from when we were tested for S/H/H/Power, it’s all transparent, there are test certs, graphs and comments about the methods used from a testing Authority, change one of these graph’s to suit your self and you will have plenty of time to contemplate your next invention.

The Excel is constructed of several steel types, shank is of bismuth steel, and I might add the shank goes right through the fluke plate and is welded under and over, the turned down toe is of bismuth steel, the complete fluke plate is of mild steel filled with cast steel for tip ballast and orientation, if you have to and I presume you will re galvanize at some stage you don’t have to re lead.

That’s about as much as I hope you need.

Thank you very much once again.

Regards.
Rex.

 

[CONGO]

Hi fishermantwo,

Sorry about that I meant to cover the slots in my reply to Rigger, sorry Rigger.

The slots in the Super Sarca are positioned so as to not reduce the strength of the fluke to create a weak spot, Further more here in Australia we do have some very hard mud to contend with, as the fluke plate on S/sarca is convex the slots allow a valley of water that gets forced back and forth through the fluke plate when anchored in choppy conditions, this movement in hard mud keeps reducing friction from the compression of the mud as the anchor is being forced in, furthermore the less the mud is compacted the easier it falls of, when breaking the anchor these slots marginally reduce suction and allows easy retrieval.

I must say it is not the sort of comment an inventor wants to hear, to me all my creations are beautiful, but then again I was handed to DAD at birth the wrong way round and he thought I was handsome, yes we have heard this comment many times, ( hoop styles) only a mother could love them, you know I had a customer come into the Melbourne boat show and made that very comment, I pointed out to him that beauty was in the eye of the beholder, I then informed him that if he reckoned my anchor was ugly I would hate to see his missus, true but I paid for it.

Fishermantwo have a look at the Excel, is that more to your liking?

Thanks for your comment.
Regards.
Rex.

 

[truscott]

Hi Truscott, Look mate burying concrete blocks is simply not my style, further more I am too old to lift the bloody things. But thank you for your question.

Regards. Rex

Rex, Never intended to imply that you had buried a concrete block. The point that I was trying to make is that whichever anchor hooks something, the beam/boom will pivot and from then on will stay pivoted (unless, I guess, the other subsequently trips on something to give it the leverage to swing the beam/boom back).

I can accept your explanation as to why your anchor starts digging in first, and the others simply falling on their side as it seems logical enough.

Will look through the rest of your vids and maybe have a look at one in real life when I'm back in Oz next.

Cheers, PT.

 

[CONGO]

Hi NOELEX,

An interesting question, look we don’t market worldwide as you know, we are mainly in New Zealand, South Africa and basically Australia, we have extremely good markets in N.Z. and Australia and basically keeps us flat out, we do have much interest from your part of the world, I am not really interested at exporting but never say never preferably we are looking at licensing to manufacture, if we managed to achieve this, the same policy will apply as here, how many anchors do you suppose we would have to replace?

Based on our last sixteen years not to many, so why bother, replace it, providing they can show they purchased it new I would do what I do here, ask the question first make sure the anchor that’s bent is the right size for their boat, if it is to small offer to upgrade it at a marginally reduced cost for the correct size.

If you purchased it from Australia, there would have to be a freight component I would say, but sure the anchor would be free.

Regards Rex.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

Amused to see that this anchor:

has done this:

would you elaborate on how much scope you allowed when the CQR dragged that far, what ratio chain to rope there was and did you employ an anchor chum or similar weight down the rode pl's?