Anchor size. I know. Sorry.

[Dockhead]

For my next anchor I will get a stainless steel Ultra with stainless steel chain. Really blingy!

I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but I'm actually using a 55kg Ultra these days.

I have used Spades since the 90's (with the odd Rocna, Delta, etc. in between) but I really got sick of the rust and switched to Ultra a few years ago.

I've been pleased with it. It seems to me it's not quite as effective as Spade, but on the plus side, it's even better balanced, coming up into the bow roller correctly every time, so reliably that I sometimes even raise the anchor from the helm.

Another bonus is that the mud comes off the polished surface much more easily, mostly just falling off by itself.

 

[Dockhead]

Agreed. But why do some people consistently tell us we need to go up a size or two. We already have NG anchors that set far better than the old CQR, Bruce and Delta and numerous tests tell us they develope twice the ultimate holding power of those old anchors. Many of us routinely use snubbers that have been proven to reduce snatch loads be a half.

Nobody should be telling anyone what anchor to use. Everyone who actually anchors will have his own experience and his own views. We're just chewing the fat here.

Switching to NG anchors was a huge leap forward; for me it happened when my Dad bought one of the first Spades in the 90's. So if you're comparing to CQR's etc., then yeah -- any size NG anchor is already a different universe.

I personally was not satisfied with that, as I spent much of my youth sleeping with one eye open on my Dad's boat, clothed, and waiting for the CQR to start dragging any time the wind piped up even a little. This stopped when he threw away the CQR, but the trauma lingered

Snubbers are required if there's any snatching. I use them in shallow water or over 30 knots of wind. In the previous boat with 8mm chain we used snubbers in all conditions, and always.

 

[14K478]

I'm not sure if you're joking or not, but I'm actually using a 55kg Ultra these days.

I have used Spades since the 90's (with the odd Rocna, Delta, etc. in between) but I really got sick of the rust and switched to Ultra a few years ago.

I've been pleased with it. It seems to me it's not quite as effective as Spade, but on the plus side, it's even better balanced, coming up into the bow roller correctly every time, so reliably that I sometimes even raise the anchor from the helm.

Another bonus is that the mud comes off the polished surface much more easily, mostly just falling off by itself.

Actually I really do intend to get exactly that, along with a Lighthouse windlass, recommended by Johnathan, but it’s pencilled in for the annual bonus, assuming that the boat doesn’t spend the money on something else* first!

I have to ask - what chain do you use with it?

* The ex boat spent 29 years with the same engine because whenever I had saved up for a new one she spent it on something else!

(It is safe to say that my sailing does not make much, or any, use of the engine.)

 

[geem]

Nobody should be telling anyone what anchor to use. Everyone who actually anchors will have his own experience and his own views. We're just chewing the fat here.

Switching to NG anchors was a huge leap forward; for me it happened when my Dad bought one of the first Spades in the 90's. So if you're comparing to CQR's etc., then yeah -- any size NG anchor is already a different universe.

I personally was not satisfied with that, as I spent much of my youth sleeping with one eye open on my Dad's boat, clothed, and waiting for the CQR to start dragging any time the wind piped up even a little. This stopped when he threw away the CQR, but the trauma lingered

Snubbers are required if there's any snatching. I use them in shallow water or over 30 knots of wind. In the previous boat with 8mm chain we used snubbers in all conditions, and always.

We use a snubber all the time. If we anchor somewhere for a few days, the wind inevitably changes strength. Its easier to fit it when we anchor rather than getting up in the night because a squall went through.
Also, the snubber reduces chain noise to zero.

 

[14K478]

We use a snubber all the time. If we anchor somewhere for a few days, the wind inevitably changes strength. Its easier to fit it when we anchor rather than getting up in the night because a squall went through.
Also, the snubber reduces chain noise to zero.

Exactly this. Very sound advice, if you are anchoring somewhere for a few days.

Yes, it cuts out all the chain noise. But many of us are more likely to be anchoring for a few hours.

 

[Tranona]

"Fervour" for heavy chain? I've never seen anyone express anything like that.

Everyone knows you don't need heavy chain to anchor successfully. Dashew advocated using lighter high test chain -- "put the weight into the anchor". And the biggest anchor you can handle. Dashew's reasoning was that the effect of catenary disappears just when you need it most -- when there is the greatest force on the ground tackle. Therefore, logically, heavy chain doesn't add much to ultimate holding power. Can't argue with that.

But that doesn't mean that heavy chain doesn't have any benefits. If you can carry it -- that is, you're not a catamaran, and your boat has enough buoyancy in the forward sections, etc. etc. -- heavy chain in deep water gives a really plush ride at anchor, and may eliminate the necessity of a snubber in a wide range of conditions. It also lasts longer. It's in no way necessary, but it's nice.

Last time I renewed my anchor chain, I considered downsizing my own chain from 12mm G40 to 10mm G70 per Dashew's recommendations, which would have allowed me to carry more than the 100m I have now. In the end I decided to stick with the 12mm.

In reasonably deep water (12-15m or more), I don't even think about snubbers until the wind is over 30.

Not sure you have been round here long enough in these debates to know that there are indeed many who do argue (with fervour) "bigger and heavier is better". However maybe the weight of theoretical and empirical evidence, or number of people who have challenged this thinking has persuaded them not to engage or more charitably have actually changed their minds.

This view has now been replaced by some who use a milder form of "fit as big an anchor as you can handle". Why? when the manufacturer has recommended a size for your boat and provided guidance about circumstances where going up a size may be a consideration. If like the majority of boats yours fits well within the size band and if already built has windlass, chain and bow fittings matched to the recommended size why change? There is no benefit as it is unlikely that the limits of hold and strength of chain will ever be reached.

It is not difficult to explain the origin of the heavy chain and oversize anchor mantra - as I (and others) have explained it was based on the type of anchors and chain available up to about 25 years ago and therefore many learned their anchoring techniques from their early days. Many also still use that outdated equipment so for them the mantra still holds true. All the developments in anchors chain windlasses bow fittings etc have been based on reducing weight and increasing power and strength to achieve the same or better performance in a wider range of conditions. Couple that with the increase of data and in use experience of anchors it is easier to determine when your boat and pattern of sailing/anchoring is at the margins for a recommended size range/usage and going up a size might be appropriate. My boat for example is at the upper end (in terms of displacement, but not hull length) for a 10kg Epsilon with 6mm chain. For my kind of gentle cruising with a lot of anchoring in sheltered conditions it is more than adequate - even overkill. If however I wanted to go off on more adventurous cruising as many owners of the same design have done I might well consider going up a size (a 50% increase based on weight!) but that would mean changing chain, either 8mm which would mean a new gypsy or stronger) and possibly modifications to the roller and its mounting to retain self stowing. Possible dilemma for the next owner.

 

[melvynpatrick]

Ok. Just to throw something else in. I also have on board a big lump of lead with a shackle moulded in. Never used it. But is there a use for it?

 

[zoidberg]

Not sure you have been round here long enough in these debates to know that there are indeed many who do argue...

....many learned their anchoring techniques from their early days. Many also still use that outdated equipment

Yup! 'When ah were a lad....'

I have respect for the likes of Tranona, who frequently ushers in a shaft of shiny-bright sense.

That's me /|\ above. However, as Jonathan N. knows, I'm a bit of a tart for new and better ideas. It's just that I take some convincing.... and I'm happy with that level of prudence stuck-in-the-mudness.

I'm not at all discombobulated by having the knowhow-in-spades of using an Old Gen anchor in challenging circumstances as well as the 'skinny' on getting down and dirty wi' a SHHP hook. It's comforting smug-building to have more than just 'one tool in the toolbag' for the rare occasions when all the stars don't quite line up and one has to make a poor second-best work as both hoped and wanted.

I've had to anchor under sail more than once. And sail off again the following morning. Dead engine, building gale, very fatigued, dark night, no chart for Port Ellen, someone else's boat - and a CQR. Circumstances where you want it right first time.

Then, the following night off Duntrune Castle, Crinan, with absolutely zilch wind and no tidestream, the only option was to lower the hefty CQR to the seabed, run out a load of chain on top of it, and hope that if a breeze started up in the night, it would stretch out the chain, we would hear that, and get up to deal with the change. Hobson's choice!

 

[14K478]

Ok. Just to throw something else in. I also have on board a big lump of lead with a shackle moulded in. Never used it. But is there a use for it?

Yes, there is!

To the shock, horror, dismay and outrage of the many experts here who maintain that the founding fathers of sailing small boats for fun have nothing to teach us, I am going to post a pictures of three pages in Claud Worth’s “Yacht Cruising”, first edition 1910, fourth edition 1934:





Until just a few years ago, Davey & Co. Ltd would supply a chain slider in the form recommended by Worth.

I doubt if they still carry it, but you may find a “Chum” on eBay or at a boat jumble. If the “Chum” has its weights, you are set; if it lacks them you can use it as the slider and belay the weights to it.

I had three pigs of lead ballast with a hole in the end of each one and such a slider, and I used it. It worked.

 

[doug748]

"Fervour" for heavy chain? I've never seen anyone express anything like that.

Everyone knows you don't need heavy chain to anchor successfully. Dashew advocated using lighter high test chain -- "put the weight into the anchor". And the biggest anchor you can handle. Dashew's reasoning was that the effect of catenary disappears just when you need it most -- when there is the greatest force on the ground tackle. Therefore, logically, heavy chain doesn't add much to ultimate holding power. Can't argue with that.

But that doesn't mean that heavy chain doesn't have any benefits. If you can carry it -- that is, you're not a catamaran, and your boat has enough buoyancy in the forward sections, etc. etc. -- heavy chain in deep water gives a really plush ride at anchor, and may eliminate the necessity of a snubber in a wide range of conditions. It also lasts longer. It's in no way necessary, but it's nice.

Last time I renewed my anchor chain, I considered downsizing my own chain from 12mm G40 to 10mm G70 per Dashew's recommendations, which would have allowed me to carry more than the 100m I have now. In the end I decided to stick with the 12mm.

In reasonably deep water (12-15m or more), I don't even think about snubbers until the wind is over 30.

The use of "Fervour" is a rhetorical gambit from folks hoping to cast themselves as the voice of moderation and good sense.

Heavy anchors work best, as does heavy chain, all else is just hot air. I suspect that the published, recommended anchor weights will work pretty well for most general boating, if you envisage exceptional conditions then the chart will often advise you to go larger.
If anyone has seen an anchor manufacturer suggest a lighter anchor for storm conditions we should be told about it.

Personally I have a modestly sized anchor and undersized chain on the grounds that where and how I normally sail it will be adequate. I don't advise it or recommend it and, if I am caught out, I will devoutly wish I had more weight in both.

.

 

[14K478]

Just for fun I asked AI; this is what came back:



Not that I would pay attention to AI. I think all it is doing is weighing the number of times different anchors get mentioned on the Internet and that’s why Rocna leads the pack. It doesn’t seem to think my 40kg Delta is too big, though. It also wants me to use a 7:1 to 9:1 scope, no doubt on the same basis. It can p*** off.

 

[boomerangben]

In all of this l, the one post the has got me thinking is the seeming change in anchor sizing for Knox anchors mentioned by Runagroundhard. I’m looking for a boat at the moment and was quite staggered that Knox recommend an 18kg anchor for a 10m boat.

 

[noelex]

In all of this l, the one post the has got me thinking is the seeming change in anchor sizing for Knox anchors mentioned by Runagroundhard.

The anchor sizing tables are all over the place.

Manufacturers of the highest performance anchors often recommend much larger models than those producing inferior designs.

I have never understood why some advise strict adherence to such obviously floored recommendations.

 

[geem]

....

The anchor sizing tables are all over the place.

Manufacturers of the highest performance anchors often recommend much larger models than those producing inferior designs.

I have never understood why some advise strict adherence to such obviously floored recommendations.

That's odd. The highest performing anchors need to be bigger?

 

[Neeves]

If anyone has seen an anchor manufacturer suggest a lighter anchor for storm conditions we should be told about it.


.

Many carry a Fortress as a storm anchor.

Many who use a Fortress as a storm anchor and have used it I anger, but with total success, complain that it is difficult to retrieve after said storm

Jonathan

 

[noelex]

That's odd. The highest performing anchors need to be bigger?

I would go further, it’s not just odd, it is wrong.

 

[geem]

I would go further, it’s not just odd, it is wrong.

You said it

 

[14K478]

Could it be that the whole business of anchoring a yacht is less of an exact science than some people would have us believe?

 

[Neeves]

Many Viking owners, numbering thousands, and a summary of the Penope work suggest a lighter anchor is more than adequate. The Viking recommendations are for physical size, not weight, and the recommended anchor is thus lighter (and bigger in area).

For Viking hold per kg is simply not accurate when comparing different designs. Their philosophy is a combination of design, stronger steel, greater area (engendering better hold) and thinner steel sets more quickly. Many of the attributes of Fortress, without Fortress' specific negative characteristics.

When the anchor is set ballast is, as the name suggests, just ballast - it offers nothing to hold. A roll bar offers nothing to hold, it just helps the anchor to set and. then clog (which is where Odin comes in, no roll bar, no ballast.

But anchors are still a compromise. With time we are getting closer to perfection.

Jonathan

 

[noelex]

You said it

No, this is how the manufacturers’ tables work (there are some rare exceptions). This is definitely not something I agree with.

For example, for your sized 44 Ketch, the anchor manufacturers recommend a 16kg Delta or a 16kg CQR, jump to better anchor designs, and overall the size goes significantly up rather than down.

Rocna recommend a 25kg weight anchor, Spade a 20kg, and Ultra a 27kg model for the same yacht.

Minor differences can be ignored, but generally the manufacturers who produce less capable designs are prepared to recommend smaller anchors.

The above are the recommendations are for steel or stainless steel models. Comparing like for like. The manufacturers’ recommended size different construction materials such aluminium will, of course, be quite different as you would expect.