Anchor size advice please

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

I have a heavenly twins 26, catamaran, 2.9tons approx.

I have seen a fishermans anchor which I fancy, it is 10kg, 20" flukes and 25" tall.

Would this be adequate holding for my boat. I carry two danforths for general anchoring, but want to carry something in case of kelp or rocky bottom.

What is the general rule of thumb on a fishermans anchor?

Many thanks in advance,


<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk/TC_IrishCruise_2003_00.html>Irish Cruise</A>

 

[hylas]

Please, forget about Ancien Greek and Roman technology..

I was once doing anchor tests with the French magazine "voiles Magazine" in the baie de St Malo.. and the Journalist, an old salt, pretended that the fisherman anchor was the only one wich was able to hold on thick kelp..

So we vent to an area of thick kelp.. and the Fisherman NEVER digs in and hold..
It was necessary for me to insist to try one of the "new technology" anchor we had on board..
At the first set the anchor digs in and holds perfectly..

We are at the century of NEW technology.. please forget about the ancient time one..

If you want to learn plenty of highly technical things about anchoring and mooring rode, I suggest you to have a look at:

http://alain.fraysse.free.fr
(Sailing)

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[PeterGibbs]

The abiding temptation is to under-weight the anchor - it makes for easier handling, lower cost etc. A Mistake. A boat of your weight and above all, of your windage, needs a significant anchor and chain set. If pressed to reduce weight /improve handleability, I suggest the following: a significant anchor - at least 20 kg in your case and CQR type or Bruce - with 5 meters of substantial chain and minimum of 50m nylon line - probably 14mm in guage.

The contributor above deals with the fishermans anchor - I entirely agree with his comments. Not only are you, your crew and your boat at risk from under-providing in the anchor department, if there is an accident and a claim is made, the insurance investigation will likely conclude an element of contributory negligence if inadequate ground tackle is on board and useable. Kedge anchors are useful backups, but the main anchor - the one you rely on primarily - is where you want to feel confident and properly equipped!

All the best,

Peter Gibbs

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

I thought CQR had problems in kelp the same as Danforth, I don't want to get into which anchor is best argument here, I am very happy with my primary anchors, for the types of ground I frequently visit, they hold better than most IMO. I also currently use 40m chain and 60m 16mm rode, so this is not a problem.

I was just wondering if that fishermans was big enough, it works like a grapple so is primary weight as important as a kedge which needs to dig in to the bottom.

I also realise that the other poster sells these 'new technology' anchors, so he will say they are the best, won't he? All I thought, and you mentioned it, that this might be an adequate anchor to carry without weighing down the boat, I do have to be careful with weight.

Thanks for the advice, I will look at other options then.

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk/TC_IrishCruise_2003_00.html>Irish Cruise</A>

 

[snowleopard]

you seem to have attracted a wide range of responses here.

the fisherman has a place for anchoring on a rocky bottom but unless you plan on sailing in that sort of area, forget it. it would need to have at least 3x the weight of a modern anchor to be any use to you.

as you have a cat, ground tackle weight is going to hamper your performance so you don't want to go over the top. my cat has twice your weight and windage and i manage very well with a 15kg delta and 20m of 8mm chain + 50m rope. i've ridden out some hefty blows with that but i also carry a very big aluminium fortress for soft mud and desperate times. for a twins 26, 10kg is plenty.

leaving aside the usual sales pitch which any anchoring thread on this forum generates, go for the latest generation of anchors: danforths and CQR are handsomely beaten by later designs like the delta.

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[Ohdrat]

Re: Rock and Kelp

Totally agree with Snowleopard the Fisherman does have a place still where the bottom is rocky or lots of kelp.. most people avoid these areas for anchoring as they do not carry a Fisherman anchor..

Fisherman anchors as far as I can see are the only anchors that have this ability to hold on these bottoms.. In fact the RNLI have an anchor specially fabricated which uses the same principle as the Fishermans.. so even old technology can have its place.

Re weights I am not sure at all what weight would be appropriate for a multi hull but chandlers such as <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.jimmygreen.co.uk/chandlery/anchors.htm>Jimmy Green</A> sell quite heavy Fisherman anchors (20kg) so would probably be able to advise on the appropriate weight for your Heavenly Twins.

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[Mirelle]

Fisherman anchors

These are not by any manner of means all the same. I do have an anchor of pretty much the dimensions you quote and it often holds wonderfully well; indeed a friend uses a twin of it as a kedge on a 50ft smack (in light weather!)

Note the term "often". This is actually too small to be relied on in a boat of your size!

There is a very good discussion of Fisherman anchors in Claud Worth's "Yacht Cruising" if you are interested. Another very good pattern is the Thomas and Nicholson pattern carried by....RNLI lifeboats, who presumably find it reliable. But these are quite big.

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[jacscarlett]

Re: Fisherman anchors

and fisherman anchors are no use in eel grass on sand.

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[TheBoatman]

Re: Fisherman anchors

They need to be reasonably big because you are asking for them to hold a 28+ ton lifeboat?

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[vyv_cox]

Anchoring in the Scillies is about as seaweed-ridden as I can imagine. Whether it is kelp or some other variety is beyond my knowledge, but there are clear differences in appearance according to depth. Much of it is in excess of 1 metre in length and in thick clumps.

A group of four of us anchored in North Grimsby on a variety of anchors, 2 x CQR, 1 x Bruce, 1 x Delta, all on all-chain warp. None of us had any problems whatsoever with our own anchoring, although many others did with theirs. During our stay we experienced an easterly F8. Biggest problem was retrieving the anchors plus huge clumps of weed. It seems to me that using good technique is just as important as the equipment.

My personal opinion, formed by experience and reading many anchor tests and trials, is that the last anchor I would have on board is a Danforth. It works OK with a steady unidirectional pull in mud. Otherwise it doesn't. I have a Fortress, which is almost the same thing. I use it for day anchoring for its ease of recovery, but I never use it for an overnight stop. I think you could do a lot better than a Danforth or a fisherman, both for holding power and versatility.

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[snowleopard]

hooks for rocky bottoms

i've seen a lot of home-made grapnels in spain & portugal on fishing boats, usually 4 bits of reinforcing bar bent and welded to a piece of pipe. presumably for holding among rocks and not a diaster if it won't come up again. bit of a s*d to stow though!

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[duncan]

Re: hooks for rocky bottoms

best to stow in a plastic dustbin or large bucket - not reallly a cruising option though!

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

I have to admit, that on overnight anchoring I have felt the need to get up and check all is well, but so far nothing has happened to jeapordise the anchors holding when the tide turns.

So ok, lets say you lot have persuaded me to reinvestigate my anchors for the the comming season. I generally anchor in sand / mud, but would like the knowledge that should I find myself in kelp / rocks my anchor will hold.

Wieght is a big issue, we do not have an electric windlass, we do have a manual one though. Storage should not be a big issue, my anchor lockers are very large, though I would still like to keep all my fenders in them too.

CQR seems the most popular looking around, so, would anyone suggest a different option that, and why?

Thanks for all answers and information so far.



<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk/TC_IrishCruise_2003_00.html>Irish Cruise</A>

 

[TheBoatman]

For sand/mud use a CQR
If over rocks use a fishermans. It folds flat for stowage, but always snug down the wedge before deploying it.
In my part of the world (Kent coast) we don't suffer with large kelp beds so a fishermans will hold most boats on most bottoms if required.

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[vyv_cox]

There have been so many anchor tests and trials, in an enormous variety of bottoms and other variables, that it is often difficult to arrive at a conclusion. If I can offer my own distillation of these:

Most trials seem to agree that the Spade holds best in a variety of bottoms. I would suggest that there is not a great deal of real experience around yet and it is very expensive. The Oceane is a cheaper version, I've never seen one, but it looks a b*gger to stow.

An anchor called the Hi-line(?) a CQR derivative by the look of it, came out well in the John Knox trials reported in PBO. I don't believe I have ever seen one and know nobody who has one.

The Delta usually comes out next, significantly it always seems to place above CQR. That's what I have and it has never failed me. I'm not knocking the CQR, they have been around for a long time and there are very many satisfied users.

Bruce and CQR usually come out about together but there are lots of copies of both, some of which are tested, so you need to be careful.

Where the trials don't give a proper guide is that they almost always concentrate on ultimate holding power only. Very few of us will ever need this property in the real world and other properties, such as re-setting, are probably of far greater importance in tidal UK. It is in this area that the Danforth type is particularly weak.

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Agreed, it is not often I will come down from my high horse, but maybe I should spend this winter reconsidering my anchoring situation.

In Wexford this year, I had a nightmare trying to get my biggest danforth to set, I was trying to anchor in the part complete marina, the pilot says this is a good sheltered place. Unfortunately the size (small) of this marina and the depth (deep) meant I needed to drop quickly and get it home before I hit the back wall, E F6.

Maybe with a different anchor I may have managed it, I did get the danforth in, but by the time it really took hold I was nearly on top of one of the little boats already anchored there. I did not have another breed of anchor so this is only speculation.

I do hear a lot of bad things about danforths, my experience is, once set, I have never been dislodged, and have anchored many different types of craft, in many different conditions on danforths, so I do have brand loyalty.

I wonder if in Ireland another anchor would have worked, some notes here

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk/TC_IrishCruise_2003_14.html>Wexford Anchoring</A>

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk/TC_IrishCruise_2003_00.html>Irish Cruise</A>

 

[hylas]

I'm now at anchor in La Palmeira Bay on the SAL island in Cap Verde Archipelago...

I've been using the new Oceane anchor, now, since the end of July..

In Canaries islands and in Cap Verde islands.. the bottoms is very often Rock,, sometime with a small coat of sand over the rock..

For my 39' and 14 tons steel boat, I use a 16 kg Oceane anchor.. and it has always set at the first trial and never dragged.. (We did'nt have wind in excess of 40 knots..)

I use this light steel anchor in replacement of my previous 30 kg SPADE anchor (still onboard as a storm anchor) and I'm very satisfied with it... but I have to point out that the 16 kg Oceane has more "blade" surface area than the 30 kg SPADE...

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[charles_reed]

Agreed

I do have a Danforth, as my 2nd kedge (it came with the boat).

It is superb in soft sand or mud - to the extent that it's difficult to retrieve - but useless in hard sand, weed or rock.

A point that often seems to be overlooked, especially by friend Hylas, is that however large the fluke area (and it's size of fluke that gives the holding power) it's wasted if the anchor won't set.

For that reason, though it probably has less holding power than nearly any other patent anchor I find the Bruce a very attractive proposition, because it re-sets so quickly and well.

In calculating anchor weights for any given boat, windage is probably more important than weight, fluke-area of the anchor as important as its weight.

A catamaran has a windage out of all proportion to its weight - I'd consider a 10 kg CQR or Delta adequate for a Heavenly Twins as a bower, but a fisherman's of that weight be totally inadequate.













































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[charles_reed]

CQR/Delta

Got one of each - I'd say there's little to choose in holding power and the genuine CQR (which has a sharper,a narrower body than its lookalikes) seems to penetrate hard sand better.
It is far harder to stow and launch than the Delta.

I agree that all the tests place unrealistic emphasis on holding power, re-setting is all important in both tidal and non-tidal waters - in the Med you have regular onshore and offshore winds and as the change occurs you'll see about 20% of recently anchored yachts happily dragging out to sea or up the beach.

Singularly, though I fancy the Bruce, I've never been able to find a cut-price genuine either 2nd hand or new so I still keep looking.

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[hylas]

Re: Agreed

"A point that often seems to be overlooked, especially by friend Hylas, is that however large the fluke area (and it's size of fluke that gives the holding power) it's wasted if the anchor won't set."

Oh Yes I fully agree with you.. setting is the first IMPORTANT characteristic of a good anchor and the BRUCE anchor is one of the best setting anchor.. during the "Practical Sailor" tests the SPADE was nearly as good as the Bruce.. but for re-setting after a change in wind direction, the SPADE was at the first position..

The Oceane anchor has apprõximatively the same digging in characteristics than the Spade, but weight for weight ~more than twice the surface area.. and this will explain its high holding characteristics..


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