Amps and hours

peterb

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I'm pushed by the wind turbines thread to ask whether sailing boats have different definitions for amperes compared with the rest of the world?

Can we get this right? Amperes are a measure of current, that is to say instantaneous current. When charging a battery they measure how quickly a battery is charging, not how much charge has been put in.

The scientific unit for charge is the coulomb, the amount of charge resulting from a current of one ampere flowing for one second. For practical purposes this unit is inconveniently small, so we use a unit 3600 times bigger; the charge resulting from one ampere flowing for one hour. For obvious reasons, we call this an ampere-hour.

Amps are an instantaneous thing. Putting it into water terms, amps are the rate at which water (charge) is coming out of the tap; the amount of water that has run into the bucket is the charge in amp-hours.

A unit of amps per hour is almost meaningless; in the water context it would be the rate at which the tap is being turned.

So we measure charge or discharge rates in amperes; we measure the total charge (current x time) in ampere hours. In terms that sailors understand, amp-hours tell us how much we have drunk /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif or how much is left in the glass, amps tell us how quickly we are drinking.

Am I being pedantic? Probably. But if we are going to speak the same language, isn't it better if we all define our words in the same way?
 
YES! By which I mean no, you're not being pedantic.

It makes it bloody difficult to follow some threads when the units move around at random! (and as I'm helping rewire a boat this spring I need as little confusion as possible).
 
Not being an electrical sort and only having a very basic knowledge of electrickery, why are batteries capacities often referred to as AmpH?

My simple understanding is that a battery with say a 200 AmpH rating will let you draw 100 amps because only half of the charge in a battery is useful. ie if an anchor light draws 1 amp, the battery will last for 100 hours before it is dead.

Am I confused about my understanding?
 
Theoretically
200 ampH will allow:
100 amps for 2 hours or
200 amps for 1 hour or
50 amps for 4 hours etc...
Its a measure of capacity
 
[ QUOTE ]
A unit of amps per hour is almost meaningless

[/ QUOTE ] I go so far as to say that it is not a "unit" at all and that the expression is totally meaningless.

Good explanation of amps and ampere hours though. Had to post similar explanations in the past!

Stingo [ QUOTE ]
batteries capacities often referred to as AmpH

[/ QUOTE ] Yes and that really is the only use for Ah. It give a convenient measurement of the amount of electricity stored. Battery capacities are normally quoted at the "20 hour rate" which means that a 100Ah battery could supply a current of 5 amps for 20 hours. A higher discharge rate would give you a lower effective capacity and a lower rate a higher one (Sorry I cant quote any example figures)

Normally you would avoid discharging a battery below 50% so on that score you are right that a 200 Ah battery would be required to give 100 Ah but it is not a figure carved on tablets of stone! Deep discharge or traction batteries can withstand much greater levels of discharge without harm.

THRE ARE some good explanations of the basics, and much more, here http://www.tb-training.co.uk/cover.html
 
[ QUOTE ]
Why don't we have MegaCoulombs following the SI units system

[/ QUOTE ] A coulomb is the derived SI unit but I suspect if you went and asked your battery supplier for a 3.6x 10^5 coulomb or a 0.36 megacoulomb battery you might find out why. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif You would have to qualify it as being at the 72000 seconds rate !
 
[ QUOTE ]

Am I being pedantic? Probably. But if we are going to speak the same language, isn't it better if we all define our words in the same way?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not pedantic in my opinion. I recently made the same comment on a watermaker thread where a supplier apparently described their kit as using 45 Amps per hour!

It really does matter, because there is no way of knowing what is actually meant.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Putting it into water terms, amps are the rate at which water (charge) is coming out of the tap; the amount of water that has run into the bucket is the charge in amp-hours.

[/ QUOTE ] My son is a newly qualified physics teacher and he tells me that the water analogy is forbidden from being taught in school. It's apparently unsafe because water and electricity are a dangerous mix!
 
Sorry to be thick, but....

I'm confused.

I understand that 1 amp-hour is one amp flowing for one hour, and 2 amps for 1 hour (or 1 amp for 2 hours) is 2 amp-hours.

So why is it meaningless to talk about 'amps per hour'?
Isn't one amp per hour, a rate of one amp-hour?

Sorry, I don't see how they're different....he said, ready to be embarrassed.
 
I had exactly the same thought on reading the wind generator thread, so thanks for the informative -- not pedantic -- post.
Stingo's confusion about battery rating has, I hope, been cleared up by other threads. Clearly a healthy 200Ah battery will indeed deliver 200Ah under particular circumstances -- but not for many cycles before it becomes damaged. It will not be 'dead', by which I presume he means flat, after delivering 100Ah. Whether you like it or not, the nomenclature is pretty much universal and allows us to compare one specification of battery with another.
I'm inclined to agree with VicS that Ah perhaps isn't strictly a unit, but it is a convenient way of working out gross current draw over time and thus how much one needs by way of replenishment from solar/wind/generator to achieve a balanced system.
 
Re: Sorry to be thick, but....

Well,
you get AmpHours by multiplying current and duration.
you would get Amps-per-hour (if they existed) by dividing current by duration. This is
- not the same
- not meaningful, because an Amp is not a quantity, or an event, but a rate.
 
Re: Sorry to be thick, but....

Or to put it another way
"Amps" is a rate - like miles per hour
"AmpH" is a quantity - like distance (miles per hour times no. of hours = miles)
"Amps per hour" is a rate of change - like miles per hour per hour (which is acceleration)

Something that draws 3 Amps per hour draws 3 AmpH in the first hour, 6 AmpH in the second hour, 9 AmpH in the third hour etc.

I'm not in any way electrically inclined, so my explanation is based on the explanations of earlier posters. Anyone care to confirm if I'm close?
 
Re: Sorry to be thick, but....

[ QUOTE ]
Something that draws 3 Amps per hour draws 3 AmpH in the first hour, 6 AmpH in the second hour, 9 AmpH in the third hour etc.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm afraid you're still too attached to "amps per hour" IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!
 
Re: Sorry to be thick, but....

Surely, using your figures, it won't consume 6 AH in the second hour will it?

6AH is the total consumed in the 1st and 2nd hours combined, isn't it?
 
Re: Sorry to be thick, but....

Well, my understanding is that if a bit of kit draws 3 amps per hour, then it draws 3 amps every hour that it is running. Very sorry, I think people are being a bit pedantic here, my watermaker uses 38amps every hour it runs. I add up all the bits of kit that are being run at the same time and that gives me the total number of amps required in an hour, or in my simple (shorthand) world X amps/Hour. If my battery bank has a useable capacity of 220 amps then I have a rough idea how long I can run the equipment before I have no electrickery left.
 
Re: Sorry to be thick, but....

[ QUOTE ]
Well,
you get AmpHours by multiplying current and duration.
you would get Amps-per-hour (if they existed) by dividing current by duration. This is
- not the same
- not meaningful, because an Amp is not a quantity, or an event, but a rate.

[/ QUOTE ] It was suggested that Coulombs were used because that is the unit of charge. AMP HOUR is a composite though useful combination of units
.
 
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