Alternator remote sensing conversion

[Seal_surfer]

Do we have a 12V expert on the forum?

I am looking at coverting my Paris-Rhone A13N (like Valeo) alternator to be battery sensed (is this termed 2 wire operation?).This is to compensate for the ~0.8 volt loss of a Split Charging diode pack. I now have it in my garage and have found it has 4 external terminals plus on board alternator mounted on its rear:

W - unused, probably tachometer.

-16 = small green wire (charge warning lamp)

+ = alternator O/P to batteries +ve. Also a brown internal wire to regulator I think

- = small black wire, don't yet know where this goes.Also a black internal wire to regulator I think


Question is, where do I connect a sense wire from the battery positive & do I need to break any existing internal connection? I

This is an interim measure while I weigh up the risks/benefits of fitting a Sterling charge controller (you could buy several replacement batteries for the cost of some of the other smart controllers). I have read other posts that comment that then alternators can get v hot - damaged?

Many thanks,

Phil

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[steve6367]

On a Yanmar 1GM with the standard 35amp alternator and 220 AH of domestic battery my alternator gets too hot to touch if the bank is well drained. A bigger alternator is probably the best fix, but I have fitted a switch in the field boost feed from the sterling to the alternator. With the field boost switched out alternator stays cool, ideal for a long 12 hour channel motor when I don’t need a quick charge. If I am just getting off the mooring for 20 mins I leave the boost in to get a higher charge rate.

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[johnsomerhausen]

Unless I am very mistaken, your alternator is sensing from the green wire which gets the battery voltage through the starter switch. The simplest solution to the presence of diodes at the battery (ies) is to insert a diode of suitable amperage in the green wire. The alternator will then sense 0.8 V less than the actual voltage and will continue charging at a higher rate, thus compensating for the lower voltage reachjng the battery
john

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[John_Walker]

I had a similar problem and tried the idea of connecting a diode in the wire from the alternator warning light. It made no difference. I believe this is because the Paris-Rhone alternator is machine sensed, i.e. the sensing connection is internal to the encapsulated regulator. I eventually fitted an Adverc smart regulator. Adverc supplied a modified internal regulator for the alternator, or you can modify the existing one to use with the Adverc regulator, but this modification only works with an external regulator, it does not on its own turn the internal regulator into a battery sensed regulator. Adverc also supplied a lot of helpful advice. The other manufacturers will probably also give you advice, but I have no personal experience of dealing with them.

John Walker

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[mldpt]

would you be interested in an old TWC electronic regulator, which has been controling my Paris Rhone on a V/P 2003 for the past 12 years. As far as I know iit works OK but the Alternator has given up the ghost finally it has been a problem ever since I bought the boat in 92 but i have had it rebuild and repaired several time so I have decidede to go mad and get a complete new alternator etc, I rebuilt the engine last winter so feel I should complete the job. If you want to try the TWC you can and if you can use it make me an offer.
Mike

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[sailorman]

its proberbly the twc that "done"for your alternator,
i have had the original "Kestral" & one other that i cant rember its name but generally the same result
Alternatot kaput

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[TonyBrooks]

You need to find the wire that is sensing for the built in regulator (I asume you have one , not recognising the number given). This may well be internal, fed form the field diodes - if you know what you are looking for. It could equally well be fed from the main positive diodes. This wire needs removing from the diode end and bringing outside the machine as the sensing wire.

My own Paris-Rhone alternator has such a wire comming from the top of the regulator case - I suspect that a battery sensed regulator is available from an alternator specialist, or they would do the conversion. It may well be cheaper than to risk damaging the diodes or regulator.


Now the question of running hot & damaging alternators by using advanced controllers.

1. Alternators are self regulating for current, so can not damage themselves by generating too much current. Anyone who thinks that hurting your hand on one indicates a problem, should try their car alternator after leaving it on fast idle with the lights, heated rear screen, and blower on for half an hour!

2. The alternators are designed for running in cool air, not the hot conditions often found in engine compartments - try piping fresh air to the back of the alternator, rather than directly to the engine inlet. I suspect this is a 60 amp alternator which means that it will produce about 1kw of heat, so hot conditons will do nothing for long life of the electronics.

3. An andvanced regulator of the Stirling/Adverc type will NOT boil batteries, damage the alternator etc, as long as its correctly installed, and the alternator is adequately cooled.

Tony Brooks


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[steve6367]

Just to clarify, I did enter into some slightly more detailed analysis than just feeling how hot it was. Any electronic device will last longer if it is kept cooler.

My solution was devised in consultation with Sterling and fits my needs well. It is also cheaper and easier than more cooling or a new alternator.

I am not saying it will be good for everyone.

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[andyball]

So you can't damage the alternator with a fancy regulator....unless perhaps you don't improve the cooling in which case you might do after all.

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[Seal_surfer]

Many thanks for the comments and advice.

I have decided to take the alternator to a local auto-electrician for identification of the connections and how to remote sense.

The debate on pros/cons of regulator controllers is interesting. My engine use will be for short periods during mooring and should therefore not be exposed to excessive heat risk. The idea of a manual override switch for longer motoring runs sounds prudent.

Thanks again,
Phil

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[TonyBrooks]

Original post perhaps not well put. If your alternator is not sufficiently cooled it can/will overheat when producing high outputs and damage itself. It will do this whatever sort of voltage regulator is fitted.

It would appear that many boats have little considerating given to ambient engine room temperature. This will affect the efficiency of the engien and in extreme cases can lead to overfuling.

If you fit an advanced alternator controller the alternator must run at higher output, for longer, than with the regular one, so you increase the chances of such a regulator appearing to "blow up" the alternator. REgretable, because the advanced regulator was the last alteration done to the charging system it gets the blame, when the blame really lies at the door of poor engine room cooling that was there all along.

I have no knowledge of the exact charging regime of teh latest Stirling units, but if you coose a "stepped" method, as in the Adverc, at least the alternator has regular periods of lower charge rate, giving it a chance to cool down a bit, so MIGHT be more tollerant of bad engine room cooling.

It is important to look at the real cause of problems, rather than to "scapegoat" an item, just because it APPEARS to be at fault.

Tony Brooks

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[pvb]

Just a thought...

Be very careful to ensure good connections on the remote-sensing lead. If the remote-sensing lead is disconnected (or develops a high-resistance at a connection), the alternator output voltage will rise to excessive levels and your batteries will boil.

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