Advice when buying river based cruiser for sea use.

[SC500]

Am considering buying a 1998 Sealine F44 fitted with Volvo TAMD63 engines, the boat having been used mostly on inland rivers in the UK. Due to speed restrictions the engines are not run above 1000 rpm, this being equivalent to the 6 knot speed limit. The engines have run a total of 315 hours. When trialing the boat and the engines were taken above 1000 rpm the exhaust emmitted large clouds of black sooty smoke. Due to the speed limit the engines were taken back to 1000 rpm, their usual runnibg speed.
The boat will be used for coastal sea cruising with engines running between 2200 rpm and max. Is the soot build up effectively self cleaning if the engines were run at higher rpm for longer periods?
Has running the engines contiuously at low rpm caused any detrimental premature wear to the cylinders which may cause a problem when opened up to max throttle, ie steps in the bore?
Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[oldgit]

Can offer some real world info.Friend of mine bought a Fairline Flybridge (about 500 engine hours)which spent most of its time on the non tidal Thames.When we bought boat round to the Medway and opened her up just past Gravesend the black **** which came out the back had to be seen to believed.
However after it had all cleared the boat went up to the revs and speed that was about right and performed well for the rest of the journey.


Would be more concerned about junk in the tanks being stirred up when things get bouncy finding its way into the filters and bringing everything to a halt a long way from home !
Being a modern boat will almost certainly mean the tanks will be impossible to inspect internally...the joys of progress eh ?
It is NOT a pleasant experience creeping home against the tide on the one failing engine you still have left as night falls and the wind freshens

 

[dragoon]

Our boat lived for a long time on the Thames. Before that it had lived on the South Coast, and for the last 10 years, has done again.

The only noticeable (to me at least) effect of this was that one of the engines had sludge under the rocker cover, which I believe can be attributed to that side engine being used to generate electricity and hot water - i.e. I suspect on many runs it didn't get hot enough and condensation built up.

Black soot is often attributable to lack of oxygen, so you may be looking at blocked filters, or possibly seized turbos.

All IMO of course...

Cheers,
Paul

 

[volvopaul]

The 63 p is a great motor but has it been serviced regulary and by a reputable engineer? thats where you need to start with the seller, I dont suppose its a Farndon is it|?

My experience with land based boats that decide to go to sea is usually a disaster waiting to happen, you tend to get overheating problems coupled with fuel starvation issues.

Imagine all those years engines running at well under there correct operating temp, which causes bore glazing, sooted up turbos, seized wastegate , the 63p has one.

The tanks sit with fuel in, all thoses years not being stirred up to bring the dirty fuel into the filters, then you go to sea, weather a bit lively then the racors are blocked up, engine stops etc etc.

Intercoolers and heat exchangers, years of marine growth build up in the tube stacks, then when you need them to work they dont as there is probably 70% of the tubes that are free to flow water.

If the boats right just budget these repairs into the offer you make.

As with any purchase you want a full survey and sea trial especially sealine hulls, and a volvo engineer to accompany you, if you cannot get the boat up to speed for more than 15 mins which on the trent and upper thames you cant then factor a sum of money to be left with the broker of the sale proceeds until you are completely satisfied with a trial in open waters, thats not uncommon to insist on.

 

[kashurst]

much as VP describes - sounds like the turbos are stuck if you are getting loads of black smoke. I had one refurbished last summer cost £600 (Volvo 63P engine, I removed and refitted it). River/lake boats are not all doom and gloom just be prepared and have the cooling system stripped and cleaned and by the sound of it some turbo fettling. 63P is a straight forward engine if you are handy with the spanners you could do it yourself. Is there any service history? As for glazed bores - how much smoke do the engines produce at idle. If its distinctly blue coloured maybe walk away, there is lots of F44s out there. Best thing get a separate engine survey.

 

[rafiki_]

Rafiki spends most of her time on the river, and she chuffs a bit of smoke out at idle, which clears above 1000 revs. She needs a good spanking to clear the injectors good and proper.

Pay heed to VolvoPaul, he understands these things pretty well, and if you factor in about £2k for servicing, cleaning the heat exchangers, emptying the fuel tanks and cleaning the fuel, you should be ok at sea.

 

[Momac]

I would not dispute any of the advice given above . If you believe the 315 hours shown is true I wouldn't be too worried - thats very low hours. Not really run in yet.

Is it on shafts? I heard of a shaft drive boat with similar early years river history and had never been to sea until it was several years old . It was taken out of the Humber around to Boston by a professional crew . On arrival the crew went off for some dinner and when they returned they found the boat was sinking due to very leaky shaft seals. The seals had been fine on the river.

 

[carlton]

...Would be more concerned about junk in the tanks being stirred up when things get bouncy finding its way into the filters and bringing everything to a halt a long way from home !
Being a modern boat will almost certainly mean the tanks will be impossible to inspect internally...the joys of progress eh ?
It is NOT a pleasant experience creeping home against the tide on the one failing engine you still have left as night falls and the wind freshens

^^^ Wot he said. In my case it ultimately led to an electrical fire in the engine bay.

 

[SC500]

Thanks for all responses

All comments are apprediated, but I must admit to being more concerened of low rpm bore wear, this not being mentioned in comments therefore I assume is not a problem.
The boat was based at Farndon and is now at Burton Waters and VP's thought of holding back some money until the engine are fully run up, if purchasing is very sensible. Engines look clean and tidy and I am led to believe the owner did most routine servicing, but with only 315 hours that may not have been too frequent. If purchasing I think the engines would need to be serviced.
Good point of fuel contamination, hadn't thought of that. Fuel and tanks would need to be cleaned.
I need to play safe with engines with either service documentation or reducing cost to provide adequate cover. If the engines are surveyed or inspected, I assume this would include fuel and oil sample checks but am unsure what else would be included. Guess I need to chat to a Volvo service engineer about engines, turbo's and intercoolers.

Generally the boat is a bit cosmetically tired but will spruce up with some expense. I am also considering a Princess 40 or 430 with same engines. I believe I am right in saying that with these hulls the props are in tunnels giving reduced draft and a more horizontal plane of the shafts. I assume this makes the drive more efficient. Anyone know if this improves fuel efficiency?

Thanks

 

[volvopaul]

P 40 and 430 a great boat, I know where there is a very nice 40 for sale if your interested and an older 410 which is mine, pm me if interested in either boats. I know the sealine .

 

[blueglass]

I bought a 7 year old boat which had spent all its life on the Thames. I had it for a season on the river myself before taking it to sea. The sabre perkins engines puffed a little faint blue smoke on the river at idle (which it was most of the time) which disappeared never to be seen again on the first sea trip. Like the OP I was waiting for probs with sludge in the fuel etc but it was never an issue.

 

[SC500]

P40 Sealine information

P 40 and 430 a great boat, I know where there is a very nice 40 for sale if your interested and an older 410 which is mine, pm me if interested in either boats. I know the sealine .

Went on Internet to view Princess 410, unfortunately your boat has a ladder to Flybridge, the Princess 40/430 having stairs is more suitable for us especially with the extended bathing platorm.

Sent PM re other boats. Is P40 a river based boat having potential engine problems at sea as the Sealine you mentioned.

Thanks

 

[JKay]

You can "test" boats legally on the Trent once under gainsboro' bridge which may show any problems up,as the Farndon boys will testify you can also push on in most places just be sensible

 

[rafiki_]

You can "test" boats legally on the Trent once under gainsboro' bridge which may show any problems up,as the Farndon boys will testify you can also push on in most places just be sensible

Good point, but this won't stir up the porridge in the fuel tanks. Needs a bot of chop to do so.

 

[JKay]

Good point, but this won't stir up the porridge in the fuel tanks. Needs a bot of chop to do so.

Go the opposite way to the Farndon boys

 

[oceanfroggie]

Some years ago, the local dealer bought a lovely old Broom Monarch into stock that had spent its life on the Thames. She was in mint condition but the engines couldn't develop full power as she had been run at low rpm for so many years. However he had a whiz of a Volvo engineer work on it and after a few weeks elapsed time managed to free up the turbos, decoke and minimise the cylinder glazing effect. How I know not, but she developed full power and has proven to be a reliable boat doing a mix of fast coastal cruising and inland work. Coincidentally a chap I know ended up buying her and has had six trouble free seasons.

 

[Trundlebug]

Go the opposite way to the Farndon boys

That's quite a sea trial, 4hours+ from Farndon to Gainsboro' and the same back.
You'll need to get on a choppy Humber to really throw it around, then you're talking a 10-12 hour day to get there and back!

Still, it would certainly give it a proper trial.
Who would pay for the diesel, buyer or seller?...

 

[JKay]

Boats in Burton Waters,2 hrs to Torksey wait for tide...........yeh it'll take a while

btw I think we should have a Farndon Forum meet there seems to be a few in the local area

 

[Trundlebug]

Boats in Burton Waters,2 hrs to Torksey wait for tide...........yeh it'll take a while

btw I think we should have a Farndon Forum meet there seems to be a few in the local area

I'm up for that. I'm at the boat most weekends (except this w/e) so a Saturday evening meet at Knots or somewhere between Burton Waters and Farndon would suit.

Not sure how many forumites there are in this area?