Advice re length of rope required for my bridle snubber

[MAFWeiss]

I am getting a custom-made bridle snubber for my 70 foot Prestige 680 to fit the 12mm stainless steel anchor chain. The plan is to utilise a Mantus chain hook. On the Mantus website they have a video for their proprietary bridle/snubber system, where the length of the two 'legs' are 30 feet (approx 9m). The vertical distance from my anchor to the water line is approx 7 feet (2.1m).

What are the advantages/necessity of having such a long length as 30 foot, or would a shorter length of say 10-15 foot be perfectly adequate, bearing in mind I will unlikely be moored up overnight out of choice in bad weather!

 

[Neil_Y]

The longer the stretchy part the better it takes up the snatch of any waves passing the boat. I've always used a snubber when anchoring over night as it also makes any movement in the chain quieter.

I would say that 10-15 foot would be good enough for anchoring in conditions where there is not much in the way of swell or other boats passing creating a big wash. Bearing in mind mine was a single snubber nylon rope of about 4m.

 

[jfm]

As you know, I'd go for zero feet. For the use you describe, I cannot see what a snubber is bringing to the party. If weather turns bad, the main thing you want is the ability to get out of an anchorage, not remain stuck in it. Good luck faffing with 2 x 10-15 foot legs when you're in a hurry and in a stressful situation. I'll just push my "up" button

But to answer your Q, yes I would think 2x10 foot legs will do the job (whatever the job is...) perfectly well, or even 2x 2metre legs. You will get much more elasticity if you go longer, but in nice weather I don't think you're looking for heaps of elasticity

 

[BartW]

there was a long post about such a snubber a few months ago:
with different vieuws on the subject
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?474151-Snubber-bridle-revisted&highlight=snubber

FWIW,
although a few forum friends made a very nice example of a snubber for me during the forum dive cruise many years ago (I still have that)
I have to admid that I have hardly ever used it, and don't fancy using it, because of the faffing / danger (in dark) when there is a need to retrieve the chain urgently. (from experience ! )

the legs of ours are apprx 10ft, just to take off the force (and noice) from the chain on the bow roller.
I don't buy the idea of having a long snubber for its elasticity, and absorb the snatches
but don't want to go further in that discussion.
see other threat for a tough debate ;-)

edit: oh sorry, my post has crossed jfm"s with a fairly similar vieuw

 

[MAFWeiss]

As you know, I'd go for zero feet. For the use you describe, I cannot see what a snubber is bringing to the party. If weather turns bad, the main thing you want is the ability to get out of an anchorage, not remain stuck in it. Good luck faffing with 2 x 10-15 foot legs when you're in a hurry and in a stressful situation. I'll just push my "up" button

But to answer your Q, yes I would think 2x10 foot legs will do the job (whatever the job is...) perfectly well, or even 2x 2metre legs. You will get much more elasticity if you go longer, but in nice weather I don't think you're looking for heaps of elasticity

Thank you Neil and JFM. My guess was that 10-15 ft should have done the job. As for the lack of need JFM, we got caught last summer in an incredibly fierce squall in Ponza in the first days of September, just having left our anchorage. The conditions we so bad - torrential rain, virtually zero visibility, thunder and lighting and a howling gale - and with my wife very scared, I had to scuttle back to drop anchor again. We were then blown about so much that under the strain the bow roller was damaged. So with many with many others keen on them, and the crew/wife demanding we try it, let's just see how we get on.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Thank you Neil and JFM. My guess was that 10-15 ft should have done the job. As for the lack of need JFM, we got caught last summer in an incredibly fierce squall in Ponza in the first days of September, just having left our anchorage. The conditions we so bad - torrential rain, virtually zero visibility, thunder and lighting and a howling gale - and with my wife very scared, I had to scuttle back to drop anchor again. We were then blown about so much that under the strain the bow roller was damaged. So with many with many others keen on them, and the crew/wife demanding we try it, let's just see how we get on.

But in that situation, howling gale, torrential rain, boat banging around all over the place, etc - you're not going to be able to deploy the snubber anyway, far too dangerous.

 

[MAFWeiss]

But in that situation, howling gale, torrential rain, boat banging around all over the place, etc - you're not going to be able to deploy the snubber anyway, far too dangerous.

Jimmy, you are of course totally correct, but forgot to mention that we could see the weather was heading our way and with hindsight we would not have left our mooring.

 

[jfm]

Jimmy, you are of course totally correct, but forgot to mention that we could see the weather was heading our way and with hindsight we would not have left our mooring.

I still say that such a situation is when you don't want a snubber. I remember similar in Ibiza, 2 summers ago. howling gale and wind in a busy anchorage. I was up at 3am because the conditions were so bad. Keys in ignition, radar on. I was firmly anchored but the boats upwind of me weren't. As the wind hit ~40 knots they dragged and I didn't. On some the owners/crew were asleep, while on others people were hauling up anchors in a stressful situation and there were people on foredecks with curly wire remotes, open lockers, snubbers to mess with, and all that palava. I just started engines and hit the "up" button", avec Ancam to align the chain and boat. I was in say 13m and as soon as the chain counter read 10m I knew I was free to move, and therefore I could dodge the anchor-dragging boats bearing down on me. The time a snubber would take to faff with, even if it didn't tangle, would have been too long.

I am firmly of the view that in busy leisure boat anchorages we worry too much about how to stay nailed to the bottom when in fact we should be asking how quickly can we get the hell out. This is exactly what BartW says above, in essence. Indeed, if everyone else's anchor is dragging I'd like mine to drag too!

 

[Portofino]

Adding my 0.02 p ,s worth
Useless -snubbers ,I,am in the JFM camp
Two scenario
1- off Cap Ferrat in the 12 M Sunseeker one pm it blew up at 3 am ( why Is it Allways 3 am ? -dunno but it is ) - in the bow cabin despite after a skinfull of vino calapso -maybe I ve answered my Q ? -the clanking is actually a "canary " - up i went as JFM described above pandemonium we had keys in ,up anchor -off in Pjarmas -kids too - for too dangerous to send wife up on the bow .
Really -pitch black ,howling wind /spray
-motored /bounced round to Villfranche @ 8 knots - reset in calm -out of the wind
Saw a few tangled up in the mele as we Bugged out !

Thinking round it why not anchor deep and let the weight of the chain vertical take the strain if unsure ?

Second eg

Just a few weeks ago returning to La Nap -forcast was low P and rain -but hey ho we are in an Itama now .
As we headed E at eco 28 knots it the sky was getting darker and the waves bigger - 10 miles out ( of a 60 mile leg )
It blew up so much ,so dark we lost sight of the main land and steered by compass @ 8 knots - the safest speed determined by Mk 1 eye ball ,not wave height - -point is this the morning Met report redicted a squal and throught it we went .
So really read the met --and if not as in eg 1 -- be ready to bug out ASAP .

A deeper depth will Surley give enough catenary on the weight of chain to make any snubber obsolete ?

 

[TQA]

The primary reason for a snubber is to cut down on chain noise. I set the length to keep the hook out of the water. But I have about 35 feet in total length on the snubber line.

If it is blowing hard and the chain is bar tight and snatching at the anchor letting out more chain and setting the snubber to 30 feet reduces the snatch on the anchor by introducing some more elasticity into the system.

I need to declare that I am a raggie but do have 14 years experience of living on the hook in squall prone regions.

 

[NGM]

I still say that such a situation is when you don't want a snubber. I remember similar in Ibiza, 2 summers ago. howling gale and wind in a busy anchorage. I was up at 3am because the conditions were so bad. Keys in ignition, radar on. I was firmly anchored but the boats upwind of me weren't. As the wind hit ~40 knots they dragged and I didn't. On some the owners/crew were asleep, while on others people were hauling up anchors in a stressful situation and there were people on foredecks with curly wire remotes, open lockers, snubbers to mess with, and all that palava. I just started engines and hit the "up" button", avec Ancam to align the chain and boat. I was in say 13m and as soon as the chain counter read 10m I knew I was free to move, and therefore I could dodge the anchor-dragging boats bearing down on me. The time a snubber would take to faff with, even if it didn't tangle, would have been too long.

Maybe a silly question but it this type of situation where exactly do you up anchor and head for ? Can't be especially easy finding protected anchorages in busy months at 3am ? just trying to mentally prepare for the inevitable day I get caught out.

 

[silverdee]

NGM I would say--- anywhere-- better to be at sea than tangled up in other boats- just plod along slowly to next safe port or anchorage.

 

[Neil_Y]

Must be nice to be able to up anchor and head off, all from the cockpit.

Having anchored mostly as a Raggy over night most nights for a year or so the snubber and a tripping line with float have nearly always been deployed. In crowded anchorages as a squal comes it is nice to able to leave quickly but also to have a means of releasing your anchor off debris or others chain. Once I'd set up a snubber (just a single stretchy rope about 5m with a hook) it was always used to keep the noise down. As we had to be on the foredeck to raise the anchor it only took seconds to release the hook as it came up.

Leaving quickly and simply when others are dragging is always a priority but I've always had to do it with someone on the foredeck, usually me whilst the G/F drives

We once hooked a 150hp outboard, which made driving away quite tricky, and I've helped others who've caught rubbish and chain. So I'd say a tripping line was more important in many cases for a safe quick getaway, or you have to drop your main anchor if it's caught and come back with a diver when it's settled down.

 

[BartW]

Maybe a silly question but it this type of situation where exactly do you up anchor and head for ? Can't be especially easy finding protected anchorages in busy months at 3am ? just trying to mentally prepare for the inevitable day I get caught out.

navigate slowly to a coast or Island that is lee side from the wind,

we had such a situation last year in Cavtat, bura becoming stronger and stronger, our anker (and others) started dragging
that bay is famous for that, hard sandy bottom,
forecast was strong wind for best part of the night,
we left the Anchorage around 11pm, and sailed slowly all along the steap rocky cliffs (on our P side, where the wind is blowing from) to Montenegro,
when we entered Kotor bay, full force wind on our nose, but no big swell in the bay
and when we reached Porto Montengro I had the wind blowing us towards a long quay wall on our SB side, (coincidently the customs dock ;-) )
crew was standing in position with fenders.
around 1am, we could safely have some drinks (and recover from the exitement)
and afther that go safely to bed, as the boat was in the best possible mooring in that situation.

 

[NGM]

all makes sense,

in hindsight I've probably been a bit complacent in the past, as in not having a 'what if' plan. We usually only anchor when the overnight forecast looks benign and I've probably given the forecast more credibility than perhaps it deserves. I'll definitely have a bail out plan in future.

 

[Hurricane]

Until last season. we had to use a snubber/bridle - in order to take the load off the windlass.
Lots of motorboats are fitted with Lewmar V series windlasses - which incorporate a slipping clutch - so something IS needed to hold the boat properly.
I'm sure that lots of skippers don't realise this and will leave the chain pulling on the windlass.

We now have a strong chain lock on the deck which does the job.
Last year, we could have used the snubber/bridle but I felt confident with the new chain lock.

Back to the OP though.
I think there is an argument to have the snubber/bridle long enough to reach just below the water line.
You can then let out more chain to hang in a loop.
So the chain comes up from the anchor, through the chain hook and back down to form a loop before rising up to the deck.
This adds weight to the chain in a similar way that a chum would do - effectively lowering the point at which the rode starts.
I'm sure that others on here will disagree but if anchored in (say) 10m of water, you could have the weight of an extra (say) 16m of chain pulling the top of the rode down.
And not any more complicated if you need to make an emergency get away - just wind in the windlass and the chain hook should fall off.

Here's an example

 

[Hurricane]

I remember similar in Ibiza, 2 summers ago. howling gale and wind in a busy anchorage. I was up at 3am because the conditions were so bad. Keys in ignition, radar on. I was firmly anchored but the boats upwind of me weren't. As the wind hit ~40 knots they dragged and I didn't. On some the owners/crew were asleep, while on others people were hauling up anchors in a stressful situation and there were people on foredecks with curly wire remotes, open lockers, snubbers to mess with, and all that palava.

Ahhh - the fun of boating.

BTW - In the morning, just ask those that seemed to be asleep - they will always assure you that they were awake - I Think Not.

 

[jfm]

I'm sure that others on here will disagree but if anchored in (say) 10m of water, you could have the weight of an extra (say) 16m of chain pulling the top of the rode down.

Yup I'll disagree:encouragement:. If you're in 10m of water you can have the weight of 10m of chain, no more. You can have a loop of 20m of chain but half its weight will be taken on the boat not the rode. Still a good idea in principle, but occasions where the difference is meaningful will be rare.

BTW hurric, I do like how Princess have moulded your bow, with the deck moulding continuing the flare of the hull. That is technically difficult to do and is seen increasingly rarely these days but top marks to P on going to that trouble

 

[MapisM]

LOL, the good old snubber/no snubber debate...
Fwiw, I'm in the snubber camp, mostly (if not only) for noise/grinding avoidance.
But I accept that if someone doesn't care about it, there's no reason to bother.

Otoh, it's undeniable that without a snubber there's a chance to damage/bend the bow roller in a blow - which in fact is what happened to MAFWeiss, as I understand.

Besides, I'm not sure to understand the fear of getting stuck in an anchorage due to the snubber.
It's sufficient to use one of those chain hooks that self-release unless tensioned, and there's nothing restricting from a straight anchor recovery, leaving the snubber hanging from the bow, to be recovered later...

 

[Portofino]

Maybe a silly question but it this type of situation where exactly do you up anchor and head for ? Can't be especially easy finding protected anchorages in busy months at 3am ? just trying to mentally prepare for the inevitable day I get caught out.

If I can just clarify ---- in our region Cote D azur and the Var .Basically Menton -Marseilles the land /peninsulars run N -S and the "wind " W-E
Think of fingers dangling .So you can and IMHO have a good plan B ,simply move to the other side of the finger .
Google Earth -cap Antibes eg --- see what I mean
So at 3 am if it blows up you simply move round to the lee side .
Hope that helps kinda explain why rapid bug out is more important than an easy life for the strain on the gypsy /clanking etc .---- in our neck of the woods .
Basically there's always a plan B not too far away + in the high season it's crowded , full of boats ,so dragging by neighbours can be frightening .

For example -I would not want the guy in the white boat off my port bow 1/4 to drag on to me -in case he did not know how to anchor If the wind changed and got up -but I have a suspicion he knows his onions !

View from t ,other side ----- and this is a quiet anchorage v quiet .

This is a bun fight ----and rapid bug out is a priority IMHO--- look at it --- they are all heading my way --eek !! If it blows up .Indeed the little blue yacht is probably over my anchor as well .