Advice on electronics

[Cardo]

Hello all
The prettier half and I are currently in the process of purchasing a 1979 Southerly 105. The boat has a bunch of electronics already, however it's a mish mash of stand alone systems of various ages. We are planning to move aboard her and go cruising for a few years. This will likely involve an Atlantic crossing and potentially a circumnavigation.

My idea is to rip out most of what's currently on board and install a new suite of Raymarine kit.

She currently has the following:
Furuno chart plotter with radar
Eagle fish finder and depth sounder
Ancient B&G wind speed/direction instruments
Simrad/Robertson autopilot (looks like an AP-22)
Standalone NASA AIS receiver
DSC/VHF radio

Whilst I can appreciate the benefits of having independent instruments, I prefer to have systems that can talk to each other and interoperate reasonably well.

I've been checking out the new Raymarine offerings and have drawn up the following list:
Raymarine e7 chartplotter - for the nav table. Boat has an internal helm position and large windows so can be steered from the dry/warmth!
Raymarine i70 instrument display for the cockpit
Raymarine DST800 smart triducer
Raymarine wind transducer
Raymarine AIS650 transponder
Seatalk ng backbone kit
Plus the various cables required to connect the items to the backbone

Due to funding constraints, I'd initially be looking to keep the Furuno radar and have it side by side with the e7 chart plotter.

I would also keep the the Simrad/Robertson autopilot, which has control panels at the nav station and cockpit. I've read the manual and it appears to support nmea-0183 input.

If funding becomes available, I would like to remove the Furuno kit entirely and add a Raymarine radar and hook this up to the e7.

So, my questions would be as follows:
Does the equipment I'm considering sound ok? Am I missing anything blatant?
What are the chances of the e7 being able to talk with and send instructions to the Simrad/Robertson autopilot? Is the hope of them getting along a pipe dream?
Should I look to splash out and just get a Raymarine radar at the same time, instead of considering this later?
Any other thoughts?

Thanks for any advice!

 

[Beadle]

My first thought is that you are spending a lot of money for very little benefit.

The Furuno gear is good quality - particularly the radar.

Not sure what a raymarine chartplotter will give you over the Furuno, particularly if your going "blue water" where the chart plotter is of little value till you get to the other end, and then its a question of getting charts for the machine. Dunno if charting for Raymarine is more available than for Furuno.

I had an Eagle fishfinder on my last boat and liked it, again not sure what benefit you are looking for.

There may be a case for changing out the B&G stuff - keeping the old gear as a back-up perhaps.

The NASA AIS receiver isn't particularly good - personally I'd replce it with a decent communications receiver and a laptop - which will give you AIS, Gribs and lots more.

I don't know the E7 machine - but the handbook - or failing that a call to Furuno should establish if it will drive the autohelm, if not a relatively simple GPS receiver will.

As for the VHF/DSC - I think one is much the same as another. If you do buy a new one I'd hang on to th old one as a spare.

Don't know if thats any help

Enjoy the trip

 

[Conachair]

Hello all
The prettier half and I are currently in the process of purchasing a 1979 Southerly 105. The boat has a bunch of electronics already, however it's a mish mash of stand alone systems of various ages. We are planning to move aboard her and go cruising for a few years. This will likely involve an Atlantic crossing and potentially a circumnavigation.

My idea is to rip out most of what's currently on board and install a new suite of Raymarine kit.

She currently has the following:
Furuno chart plotter with radar
Eagle fish finder and depth sounder
Ancient B&G wind speed/direction instruments
Simrad/Robertson autopilot (looks like an AP-22)
Standalone NASA AIS receiver
DSC/VHF radio

Whilst I can appreciate the benefits of having independent instruments, I prefer to have systems that can talk to each other and interoperate reasonably well.

I've been checking out the new Raymarine offerings and have drawn up the following list:
Raymarine e7 chartplotter - for the nav table. Boat has an internal helm position and large windows so can be steered from the dry/warmth!
Raymarine i70 instrument display for the cockpit
Raymarine DST800 smart triducer
Raymarine wind transducer
Raymarine AIS650 transponder
Seatalk ng backbone kit
Plus the various cables required to connect the items to the backbone

Due to funding constraints, I'd initially be looking to keep the Furuno radar and have it side by side with the e7 chart plotter.

I would also keep the the Simrad/Robertson autopilot, which has control panels at the nav station and cockpit. I've read the manual and it appears to support nmea-0183 input.

If funding becomes available, I would like to remove the Furuno kit entirely and add a Raymarine radar and hook this up to the e7.

So, my questions would be as follows:
Does the equipment I'm considering sound ok? Am I missing anything blatant?
What are the chances of the e7 being able to talk with and send instructions to the Simrad/Robertson autopilot? Is the hope of them getting along a pipe dream?
Should I look to splash out and just get a Raymarine radar at the same time, instead of considering this later?
Any other thoughts?

Thanks for any advice!

A few points, don't see the point of a chart plotter, the charts will cost a fortune. There aren't many long distance cruisers without a laptop and cm93 charts onboard.
You haven't mentioned power - that lot will need some amps to keep it going.
Autopilot - for long distance i would go for windvane every time, no power and easy to fix when it breaks.

I got on fine round atlantic with just sl72 raymarine radar, aries windvane, nasa ais and gps128 plugged into laptop. And cheap ssb reciever for weather. You really don't need all that much, it's just more things to go wrong.

 

[lenseman]

Hiya Cardo

Re- installing electronics is an expensive operation and involves far more than just buying kit with the funds available.

You will need to completely re-work the wiring to each instrument as most probably, nothing from the original instruments will work for you.

Secondly, once you remove old instruments, you will probably have different size holes in the woodwork where the old and new differ in size. You will also have a load of carpentry to sort out.

Best to sail the yacht first and decide where 'you' would like the instruments installed. This is possibly different to where they are now. For example, on my yacht the previous owner had installed a NAVTEX. It is low down in the chart room right at the back and at the level of the chart table itself.

This NAVTEX is impossible to read unless you squat down and place your chin on the chart table and look directly into the LCD panel of the instrument. I think it needed to be installed at eye-level when entering the chart room area as this information is needed in real-time not only once a day or so.

Second thought. Will you be navigating using the chart-plotter and if so, would an installation inside the yacht be the best position or outside in the cockpit area?

If installed outside in the cockpit, can you make it such that it will not be stolen when you are sailing in the Far Flung. Thieves operate in places like the Caribbean and Asia and they would have no compunction in helping themselves to your equipment.

If inside, could you rush down and read it in a hurry during a blow!

My sister use to live in Mombasa, Kenya and her domestic helper would always help herself to anything of value 'laying around'. When questioned, her response was ". . . . it had been there a few days and I didn't think you wanted it anymore". This is a common philosophy in the third world!

Take the yacht sailing a few times before you start to re-arrange the electronics.

 

[charles_reed]

Looking at the list, it would appear that the previous owner has installed (in most cases) best of class.
The Raymarine range you are proposing will mainly be comparable, with the exception of the autopilot (which will be inferior).

So you'll be spending a lot of money to have a matching set with comparable to inferior performance.

I have used Raymarine autopilots for 30-odd years and a few are adequate for the trip proposed, but most will struggle.

But it's your money and Raymarine need the sales, so we'll all look on your purchase as an act of generosity.

 

[onesea]

Hiya Cardo

Best to sail the yacht first and decide where 'you' would like the instruments installed........

.....Take the yacht sailing a few times before you start to re-arrange the electronics.

In my mind that goes not just for electronics it goes for nearly anything..

 

[Cardo]

Thanks for the replies so far. There seems to be a lot of negative responses so far.

Why so much hostility towards Raymarine? I've chartered a few boats with Raymarine kit and I got along with it well. I especially like how their chart plotters work and integrate with radar/AIS. Is there something I'm missing?

I am not proposing to install a Raymarine autopilot. I will be keeping the current Simrad/Robertson autopilot. If I could get it to work with a Raymarine chart plotter, great, if not, then fair enough.

The current kit is mostly quite old and some of it doesn't work, this is why I'm planning to replace and update it. I would certainly not feel comfortable keeping the older instruments.

The Furuno chartplotter/radar and Eagle fish finder are ok, but are an eyesore and somewhat out of date. Having read up about the chart plotter, I don't believe it would display AIS data, for example.

I have considered the laptop route. I quite like the idea, however surely a laptop is going to drink more juice than a dedicated chart plotter? I'll probably still have a laptop as a backup in case something were to happen to the chart plotter.

If it's the Raymarine brand that's an issue, what would you lot recommend? I had looked at the Garmin kit, which doesn't look too bad and runs direct over NMEA-2000.

 

[charles_reed]

Thanks for the replies so far. There seems to be a lot of negative responses so far.

Why so much hostility towards Raymarine? I've chartered a few boats with Raymarine kit and I got along with it well. I especially like how their chart plotters work and integrate with radar/AIS. Is there something I'm missing?

I am not proposing to install a Raymarine autopilot. I will be keeping the current Simrad/Robertson autopilot. If I could get it to work with a Raymarine chart plotter, great, if not, then fair enough.

The current kit is mostly quite old and some of it doesn't work, this is why I'm planning to replace and update it. I would certainly not feel comfortable keeping the older instruments.

The Furuno chartplotter/radar and Eagle fish finder are ok, but are an eyesore and somewhat out of date. Having read up about the chart plotter, I don't believe it would display AIS data, for example.

I have considered the laptop route. I quite like the idea, however surely a laptop is going to drink more juice than a dedicated chart plotter? I'll probably still have a laptop as a backup in case something were to happen to the chart plotter.

If it's the Raymarine brand that's an issue, what would you lot recommend? I had looked at the Garmin kit, which doesn't look too bad and runs direct over NMEA-2000.

Whilst I have a lot of time for Raymarine, they don't always produce best-in-class, I can think of no other company who produces a range, who does.

Answering your 2nd ? It depends to a great extent on screen size as to comparable power consumption. The latest 43nm chips are very economical and I'd doubt much difference.
I personally wouldn't rely on a laptop for sole navigation, whilst I have OpenCPN on a Linux OS, I have a small-screen Lowrance for normal use.

 

[Dockhead]

Why do you need for your charplotter to talk to your pilot? The only purpose for that is to use "track" mode or "route" mode, both of which are pretty useless on a sailboat, in my opinion. Your pilot gets heading data from a fluxgate compass, which need not be connected to the network. Your plotter might get heading data from your pilot for its own purposes -- like radar overlay in North Up mode. But this data will be given as NMEA 0183 data which, as far as I know, all plotters will accept.

You would want networked wind instruments, however, talking to your pilot -- for "wind following" mode which is extremely useful and possibly important to safety on long passages. I don't know if your present pilot has a control head which can accept wind instrument data and can implement that mode. If not, that would be a good reason, in my opinion, to upgrade the autopilot control, if not the course computer and drive gear.

I wouldn't bother changing the plotter unless you are dissatisfied with the radar. Old plotters won't accept data from newer type digital (or indeed broadband) radar -- the only reason why I am considering changing my plotters.

I have used Garmin, Furuno, Simrad, and Raymarine plotters. I like the Raymarine best -- most logical and powerful interface, and very solid, reliable gear. Caveat: I haven't used any Ray plotter newer than my RL80CRC+, so these comments might not apply to the newer stuff.

The E7 looks very good to me, but I will probably not be buying one. That is because the radar is double the cost of the Simrad broadband radar, which is much better for my purposes I think. And a weak, old Pathfinder radar is the reason I am planning to change my electronics. It looks like I will be stuck with Simrad plotters -- good enough gear, but I don't like them quite as much as the Ray stuff.

Consider a plotter/radar display at your helm. If I could have only one, that's where I would put it. There's a very informative thread going on now about it.

Good luck, and let us know what you end up doing.

 

[Tintin]

Thanks for the replies so far. There seems to be a lot of negative responses so far.

Why so much hostility towards Raymarine? I've chartered a few boats with Raymarine kit and I got along with it well. I especially like how their chart plotters work and integrate with radar/AIS. Is there something I'm missing?

I am not proposing to install a Raymarine autopilot. I will be keeping the current Simrad/Robertson autopilot. If I could get it to work with a Raymarine chart plotter, great, if not, then fair enough.

The current kit is mostly quite old and some of it doesn't work, this is why I'm planning to replace and update it. I would certainly not feel comfortable keeping the older instruments.

The Furuno chartplotter/radar and Eagle fish finder are ok, but are an eyesore and somewhat out of date. Having read up about the chart plotter, I don't believe it would

I have considered the laptop route. I quite like the idea, however surely a laptop is going to drink more juice than a dedicated chart plotter? I'll probably still have a laptop as a backup in case something were to happen to the chart plotter.

If it's the Raymarine brand that's an issue, what would you lot recommend? I had looked at the Garmin kit, which doesn't look too bad and runs direct over NMEA-2000.

The comments aren't anti raymarine really, and more along the lines of challenging your whole hypothesis that new is good, and that all from one mnfr is good. As Charles politely noted what is on there is good stuff.

If it aint broke why fix it?

And you did after all ask for opinions.....

 

[uxb]

For what your planning -Avoid as much electronics as possible...

As has been stated a windvane is a far better option than an electrical pilot. (Hydrovane is my favorite, 14 years so far no breakdowns and no replacement parts required..)

 

[dslittle]

Why do you need for your charplotter to talk to your pilot? The only purpose for that is to use "track" mode or "route" mode, both of which are pretty useless on a sailboat, in my opinion.

Agree 99% of the time but I have used my track to keep me on a transit when the weather came down and we lost visibility. I know that I could have done it watching the depth (and did - just in case) but it was a very nice feeling, popping out of the weather to see the transit still there!

 

[Conachair]

I have considered the laptop route. I quite like the idea, however surely a laptop is going to drink more juice than a dedicated chart plotter? I'll probably still have a laptop as a backup in case something were to happen to the chart plotter.

Mine draws about 1.5a using maplin car power supply, but it's only usual used at start and end of a passage. Ais is seperate standalone as is the radar. But using a laptop for charts is effectivly free anyway, all you need is cheap usb-serial adaptor, the rest comes free.

 

[farmer.leo]

If it's the Raymarine brand that's an issue

I think the best advice so far is for you to learn the boat, and get a feeling for where you'd like things installed, what you need, what equipment works, what doesn't.

Raymarine has lots of happy customers, but they aren't perfect. I'm very displeased with their "customer service" with respect to support. They remove free software / firmware updates from their servers. Why? Sadly, it would seem possible that Raymarine suits think that accelerating the obsolescence of their products may spur increased sales. As far as I'm concerned, short term product support will only spur sales of their competitor's products.

Having said that, If you are thinking of serious cruising then you need to consider having a computer on board. If you choose a laptop, you should look at the netbooks, which are very small but more than enough computing power. Plus, some of them can run off of 12V power - without an inverter. Another option is specialized 12V computers, which can use very little power. Many are custom made / designed for the car enthusiast and professional trucker market.

You might also like a computer that goes into and out of "sleep" or hibernation mode quickly without loosing GPS connection.

I'm looking at getting a specific 12V boat computer. Currently using a laptop which is good at using little power while on its own battery, but sucks too much power when "plugged in" - it can't tell the difference between you house socket and an inverter.

And just to be clear, for me the computer at the nav station is for really knowing where you are, planning routes, more reliable depth readings, port information, etc. I've got a less functional, but more rugged and waterproof GPS display at the helm. Don't need a new expensive plotter at the helm for following a plotted course. Don't need to be distracted by fancy display. Pop down into the Nav station to get the big picture and do your planning.

Think about it, why have boats always had Nav stations down below, and not next to the helm?

Another plus to using a computer, a simple GPS "mouse" that plugs into your USB port may track satellites much much better than an expensive (cough ... Raystar 125) which I've found to be terrible. Just my experience.

Good luck!

 

[Cardo]

Thanks again for your replies.
Quite a few people suggest the laptop route. I do quite like the idea of integrating a laptop into the onboard system.

Is there any particular software that's preferred? I've had a look around and there are tons of different software packages. Is there a package that is preferred by cruisers for whatever reason? As I understand, you can't view radar images on a laptop, however they should be able to cover most of the other information, including AIS?

 

[farmer.leo]

1. OpenCPN http://opencpn.org/drupal/
2. PolarNavy http://www.polarnavy.com/main/prod1

# 1. is free and has AIS and many features and I've used it, #2 I seriously considered but costs $50 and you could have installation issues with their copy protection scheme. This could be a problem if you have to reimage your HD or change configurations, but #2 may have a few more features and may be more polished. I haven't actually tried #2 but OpenCPN is awesome.
Note that PolarNavy has a much limited free version but it is instruments only, no GPS on the map.

Personally, I wouldn't consider any of the other pricey programs, and copy protection problems are just the sort of additional headache which I won't accept on a boat. We've got enough problems already.

In theory, a radar display could be placed on top of a GPS display. If you have a radar that is networked somehow, and their data is not locked in something proprietary, then there may be an add-on for OpenCPN someday to display it. Perhaps at boat shows we should let radar venders know that having open networking is a requirement for our next purchase... I've read that Raymarine had proprietary software with which certain of their radars could display on the map, but i've also read that their software was pricey and hasn't been updated.