Advice on choosing a windlass, Lofrans X2, Lewmar VX2+, etc.

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Mikko M

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Hi,

I have a OE32-cutter, displacing around 7000kg / 15500 lbs. Currently i've got a manual SL 555 windlass, which is fine in itself, but i am stuck with a RCB70 gypsy that accepts 10mm and 3/8 chains (other gypsies exist, but are almost impossible to find), and would very much like to use 8mm DIN chain due to weight. The anchor gear would consist minimum of 60 m / 200 ft of 8mm chain and a 20kg anchor, so that would be at least 105 kg / 230 lbs to haul up, more if i choose to go for full 300 feet of chain.

I have been thinking about buying a vertical windlass with a capstan, perhaps Lofrans X2 or Lewmar VX2+, both with 1000w motors. A couple of other alternatives would be Lofrans Kobra or Tigres, mainly due to budget constraints. Maxwells, Muirs etc. seem to be more expensive.

I do realise that Lofrans' older horizontal windlasses - especially Tigres - enjoy a quite good reputation in terms of reliability, but would probably be a major overkill for my boat (not necessarily a bad thing with windlasses). Kobra seems okay too, at least on the paper. However, vertical windlasses would leave more room at the foredeck and i like the idea of having the motor inside the boat, out of spray and even the wet chain itself. The chain itself will fall all the way down to separate anchor locker under waterline via a large pipe.

Does anyone have any experience in how the Lewmar's new hybrid gypsy will hold up to real life abuse? I know composites can be very tough, but there's a reason why bronze has been used for gypsies for centuries.

Any thoughts on Lofrans X2 vs Lewmar VX2+ ? Any other good choices within the same price range? Haven't been able to find many positive comments on Quick windlasses, but i am willing to change my mind.
 
Clearance Lewmar CPX1 Windlass This is on sale without warping drum. Any windlass from this site should be worthy. There is also a 8mm manual Lofrans Royal for £439.

I have always liked the look of Lofrans Kobra because the gear box would suit a smaller anchor locker...the gearbox sticking out at right angles can be a real pain even if they can be adjusted to different angles.
 
As a generalisation: Amongst livaboard/long-term cruisers, the overwhelming majority of those with Lewmar windlasses including ourselves, have been disappointed with their performance: Great winches, but fragile windlasses.
The Lofrans products seem to stand-up to the wear and tear of 300+ days a year at anchor far better than the Lewmars and of equal, perhaps more importance, when a Lofrans does break, you can purchase individual spare parts to repair it. Other than offering a service kit, with a Lewmar you will have to buy a complete electric motor/gearbox unit, or a complete above-deck capstan unit if anything in them should break (both retailing at about 80% of what it'd cost to buy a complete new unit; or as we did, you might get the parts individually machined by a local engineer. The Tigres/Kobra units are probably the most respected and popular windlasses around.
 
I've been round a similar circuit to you. Having looked at all the electric systems and costed it I decided to replace the my 30 year old SL with a brand new SL 555 sea tiger!! I'm curious about your concern about the chain weight given you have a windlass that is more than capable of doing the job.
 
We use a Maxwell RC8-6 with a 1000 watt motor. Installation was easy, we replaced a Muir Atlantic. We do not have the capstan as our windlass is 'under' the deck - we have large central hatch if we need to access. Our arrangement keeps the deck clear (of trip hazards). The yacht is a 38' cat with a 22'6" beam weighing 7t fully laden for a 3 month cruise (including crew of 2). We have the same windage as a current 45' Bav, (I measured them both)

The '6' refers to the chain size, so takes 6mm chain but you can option for 8mm. Our gypsy accepts 12mm 3 strand or octaplait the 8mm gypsy will accept 14/16mm 3 strand or octaplait.

I arranged for our chain to be galvanised, its a G80 chain, and your nearest equivalent would be a G70.

The advantage of 6mm is you save even more weight, the chain takes up less room (or you can carry more chain). 6mm G70 would be strong enough for your yacht - but you would need to use a sensible snubber. Someone will pipe up and say 6mm chain galvanising will not last as long, as 8mm or 10mm. This is not correct - our galvanising is standing up well and I conducted abrasion tests on 6mm, 8mm and 20mm chain and I defy anyone to tell the difference. The quality of galvanising is more important than the size of chain - in terms of abrasion resistance. 6mm chain, being lighter, will have less impact on your batteries (though we always retrieve with the engines running). If you ever retrieve the rode by hand - 6mm is a godsend.

The downside of smaller chain is that in light, fluky, winds you are not 'held' by the friction of the chain on the seabed - we would deploy less chain if this was an issue.

I have not ignored your comment suggesting Maxwells are expensive - we have found the technical support (noting we are in Sydney) to be superb and I like the easily accessible serviceable components. The windlass has performed flawlessly - maybe you get what you pay for.


I am constantly amazed by the number of lighter yachts using 10mm chain, it is surprisingly common. I suspect the use of 'heavy' chain is a hangover from days in the past when snubbers were 'nasty' (in Trump speak) people at parties. Now that we have moved on many have learnt that snubbers can 'replace' chain - which is what we have done, downsizing from 8mm to 6mm.

I'll dig out the appropriate reading list :) and add them later

Jonathan

The art of snubbing, in the nicest possible way - MySailing.com.au

Anchor Snubber Tips

How to: Dealing with Snatch Loads in an Anchorage

Know how: Ground Tackle


Stooriefit:

Mikko is not worried that his existing windlass cannot cope he is trying to save weight, specifically weight in the bow. His chain, is well overstrnegth (and thus weight) for his yacht and smaller chain will be perfectly safe (in terms of its strength). The problem with manual retrieval is that you tend to postpone moving to a quieter part of the bay when the forecast wind is not quite what you expected. If you can retrieve by the press of a button - life is so much easier - even a child can do it.
 
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Is there any reason not to fit a horizontal windlass? If you can accomodate it the Lofrans Dorado in 700 watt 8MM chain configuration is cheaper than the X2 and should be fine for a 7 ton boat.

I have an old Lofrans Tigres with the original 1000 watt motor on my 45 foot 11 ton displacement boat with 65 metres of 10mm chain plus a 25KG anchor and it is perfectly adequate, although later Tigres windlasses have 1200 or 1500 watt motors.
 
The weight of the chain is one of the reasons why i am thinking of buying a new, electric windlass. 100 metres of 10mm DIN chain weighs pretty close to 230 kg, whereas same length of 8mm DIN is 140kg. 100 metres of 6mm chain would be only something like 80 kilos (?). My sailing background is mostly in racing (around the cans & offshore), so i do realise that i am perhaps overly allergic to having unnecessary weight at the ends of a boat. Also, OE32 is not a racing boat - at least not for most of us - and will not be so sensitive to extra weight at the bow area as modern, lighter racing boats with narrow, hollow forefoots. But at those lengths changing to a smaller chain will save quite a lot of weight, much more than weight differences between any windlass candidates i have in mind, or suitable anchors for my boat.

Another reason is of course comfort. Or laziness, to be honest. For it's size, Seatiger 555 can certainly lift plenty of gear, and i really like the robust design of it. It's just quite slow.

I can come up with three reasons for not fitting a horizontal windlass. None of them is particularly good. First being that a vertical drum is better suited to warping, if needed - or so i've heard, never tried it myself. Second being that i am under the illusion that if i am able to place the motor inside the forepeak (not in wet anchor locker), there would be less issues with corrosion etc. later on. But then again, most horizontals seem to do just fine sitting on deck (?). Third being a little less deck space and perhaps aesthetics, not really an issue after all.

What comes to pricing of Maxwells, i am not sure whether it is that they are expensive or my budget being just too small. However, if i compare Maxwells and Lofrans' models with similar capacity (work loads claimed by manufacturer, motor size) it seems that Maxwell is almost twice as expensive as Lofrans when i add up all necessary bits and pieces (switches, fuses and so on) + shipping. I do not imagine that any of the windlass brands have any meaningful local after sales or repair service in Finland, to be honest. If something breaks, it pretty much comes down to contacting the factory.

Lofrans Kobra could be one option, i suppose those have quite large installed base as well, and it has been in production quite a while already. Currently in Europe, the price difference between Kobra and Tigres is quite small, Kobra and X2 both being about 1000 euros without switches and fuse, Tigres about 150-200 euros more. Lofrans Dorado does not have a capstan, but it has a nice small footprint.
 
I bought and fitted last year, the Lofrans X2 vertical windlass. Based on price vs the usage we would give it.

We have a 33' Jeanneau and the low height of the unit in the anchor well, leaves the deck completely clear. The electric motor is below deck in the dry. The exterior unit is 'chromed' and looks salty a lot of the time, but this wipes off easily and so far (only 1 season admittedly) shows no sign of deterioration. We use 60m of 8mm chain and 60m rope rode, that goes through the windlass very easily.

We also fitted, as an extra, a remote controller (£13 or so on ebay) so we can work it from the cockpit or foredeck.

I haven't worked out yet what we're missing when we bought this cheaper unit. It has all worked exceptionally well.
 
I would never buy G70 chain again - in UK / Europe anyway. Here it is called Aqua 7 and Jimmy Green no longer sell it because of poor Italian galvanising methods. My 100m 8mm Aqua 7 lasted 3 years and rusted away.
 
I use Maxwell RC8-8 and Mantus swivel medium size stronger than 10mm chain.

OP if interested in saving weight could go with 30m 8mm chain and 70m 14mm nylon or octoplait rode?
 
Star-Lord said:
I use Maxwell RC8-8 and Mantus swivel medium size stronger than 10mm chain.

OP if interested in saving weight could go with 30m 8mm chain and 70m 14mm nylon or octoplait rode?
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I have had two Maxwell RC8 windlasses. I replaced the first only because I needed one with a rope capstan. Utterly reliable, the fastest haul available according to the YM test. Several of the well-known makes have reported reliability issues. We anchor maybe 200 times per year now: in the past more like 600. Never had a problem with either of them. Well worth paying the extra money.
 
Mikko, thanks for the compliment.

Maggi did appear to shoot themselves in the foot with their galvanising quality, complaints covered both G70 and G40. It had nothing to do with the steel quality - simply poor galvanising. Coincidentally or simulataneously Maggi went into administration and was managed under some system used by the Italians to save companies. I have been told by the distributor of Maggi product, Chains, Ropes and Anchors in NZ that those days are in the past and quality is now acceptable. I have seen no evidence either way. G70 chain in metric sizes is available from stock in Germany from Peerless (but I don't recall if they offer a 6mm size). Contact through the Peerless website in America. Galvanising of chain is not rocket science - quite why Maggi made such a mess is unknown.

We too came from a racing background and were then very conscious of weight in the ends. Catamrans are little different and we have gone to great lengths to keep weight down.

Another option, as I think you said you are based in Finland, is Gunnebo who produce a very acceptable galvanised G100. Its sold for the aqua culture industries and I am sure it meets the strength specification on their website. However I don't know if the links will fit a standard gypsy. In order to achieve the strengths they quote the wire is actually bigger, so the links are 11mm rather than 10mm and the link itself may have a different dimension. None of this may matter - it may still fit gypsies made for 10mm or 6mm chain (as, for example the Maxwell 6mm gypsy is actually described as a 6-7mm gypsy). If you wanted to follow this route I would ask for, free of charge, sample of the chain required -about 300mm - and try it on a gypsy, or send it to the dealer from whom you want to buy the windlass and ask them to size it. I'd actually want to see with my own eyes! I'm sure there is a Gunnebo distributor in Finland - it might be worth a phone call (and I am sure the distributor and Gunnebo would welcome a new sales out let for the product - so they might bend over backwards to help and even price attractively - you never know if you don't try :).

Our chain is 6mm Gunnebo G80 which we had specially galvanised using the Armorgalv process about 4 years ago. Now I'd be doing what I suggest in the previous paragraph and if it did not fit would I then arrange to coat my own chain.

If you were to look at the gypsy spread sheets from windlass you would be amazed at the sizes they produce, they have metric sizes and each of the imperial sizes of which there are many, as they don't have standardised links sizes, BBB being different to G30, different again to G43 and thats's for each nominal size of 1/4", 5/16th" etc

If you were to consider following the Gunnebo route and seriously consider 6mm chain, (I actually assumed you would dismiss it out of hand) you need something to connect chain to anchor. We have been using Omega links, G80 are adequate but G100 might be better, at the end of the chain and then a conventional Crosby G209a shackle. After we had our G80 galvanised I helped a friend have 100m of 8mm similarly coated and we did use G100 omega links. I am actually trialing hammerlocks currently as they can connect to the chain and straight to the anchor without the need for the Crosby shackle. You will find Omega links (and hammerlocks) on the Gunnebo website. They are also made by lots of others, Van Beest, Crosby, Pewag etc - but as far as I know only Gunnebo make the galvanised G100 chain. As an aside Gunnebo (Norwegian/Swedish??) is now owned by Crosby (American). Similarly if you wanted to explore the 6mm route - let me know and I can send you more background, I don't have links).


I can confirm Vyv's comment on the speed of the Maxwell windlass, incredibly fast. Most of the time it does not matter but if you have deployed 75m, speed is an asset.

Jonathan
 
Maggi quality is not acceptable as of a few months ago. The Uk stockist (Jimmy Green ) are no longer stocking (new) Maggi products due to unsatisfactory attitude of new management and quality of galvanising. This was told to me by Jimmy Green management when I needed to replace my rusted to smithereens 3 year old Aqua 7.

I would recommend this 8mm chain 8mm DIN766 Titan Grade 43 Calibrated Anchor Chain this company delivers world wide. 80m should be sufficient if worried about weight.
 
Mikko,

Have you actually costed the whole of this project? Given that you have an existing manual windlass you're likely to need to cost in maybe an additional battery and the copper wire to connect up to your charging system. In addition to the actual windlass you are also having to price in new anchor rode (in whatever chain / arp mix you choose). If you really want to reduce the weight of the rode I'd suggest removing some of you existing chain and replacing with suitable warp.

Neeves,

A child could use my manual windlass too.
 
Stooriefit said:
Mikko,

Have you actually costed the whole of this project? Given that you have an existing manual windlass you're likely to need to cost in maybe an additional battery and the copper wire to connect up to your charging system. In addition to the actual windlass you are also having to price in new anchor rode (in whatever chain / arp mix you choose). If you really want to reduce the weight of the rode I'd suggest removing some of you existing chain and replacing with suitable warp.
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I would be happy with a Lofrans Royal manual windlass with chain and warp. I sometimes think for a smaller boat that is the way to go. No extra nothing just a bit of extra effort!

I watch the YouTube channel Sailing Kittiwake and they have a very sturdy manual windlass...but they never say how long it takes to retrieve their anchor. I wonder how long it takes to retrieve 50m? In a emergency departure just buoy off the chain and dump it for retrieval at a later date. A secondary anchor and rode would let you anchor somewhere safe till then.
 
Star-Lord said:
I would be happy with a Lofrans Royal manual windlass with chain and warp. I sometimes think for a smaller boat that is the way to go. No extra nothing just a bit of extra effort!

I watch the YouTube channel Sailing Kittiwake and they have a very sturdy manual windlass...but they never say how long it takes to retrieve their anchor. I wonder how long it takes to retrieve 50m? In a emergency departure just buoy off the chain and dump it for retrieval at a later date. A secondary anchor and rode would let you anchor somewhere safe till then.
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I had a Lofrans Royal manual windlass many years ago. It was incredibly slow to recover chain and anchor, so much so that I rarely used it, pulling chain in by hand. No way I could do that now thanks to age and back trouble.
 
Neeves said:
I'm sure there is a Gunnebo distributor in Finland - it might be worth a phone call (and I am sure the distributor and Gunnebo would welcome a new sales out let for the product - so they might bend over backwards to help and even price attractively - you never know if you don't try :).
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I haven't called Gunnebo quite yet, but i found this:
https://www.gunneboindustries.com/Global/Lifting/Catalogues/English/Chapter 5 - Chain_metric.pdf

A stupid question: are the G8 and G10 -grades that are being used for industrial chains somehow equivalent to G80 and G100? Having a quick glance at the numbers, the breaking load figures would seem to point towards that conclusion .

Hopefully i will get a quote for Maxwell RC8-8 this evening from a local equipment supplier. Let's see if it is competitive, i might be willing to stretch my budget a little upwards if needed.
 
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