Advice for a first boat please, cuddy or cruiser.

[JimJimney]

Hello,

Im looking to buy a first boat, i do have some experience on the water, sailing and motoring but currently only have a dinghy and monster 2.2hp outboard. We both have our ICC's.

Im looking at a Sea Ray 230 Overnighter or a Sea Ray Sundancer 260. I ended up with these two options as they are both available locally and in my price range of 15,000 Euros. They are both from around 1999, both with around 400 hours. I live in Spain.

I have a friend selling at Sea Ray 290 going very cheap, but i know it needs some work and wasnt particularly looking for a project. I thought perhaps it was a bit big for a first boat, plus juicier than the other two (twin engine).

So what im not sure about is if the size differences of these options really makes much difference for a novice, im thinking the wife isnt great at parking our Landie! Our local marina can be very busy. Also the 260 cruiser is considerably heavier than the 230, but has more space for longer days out and possibly the odd siesta and despite the heat in summer i still drink alot of tea so a little galley would be great.

Im not looking to do anything in particular, just some fun days out, wont be going too far regularly, just to explore some coves and get off the land. A little skiiing would be good and possibly the odd night somewhere (tbc!). There are numerous coves and marinas within 3nm each way from us, but fuel costs are a consideration. I do like tinkering with anything mechanical so i hope to be down there regularly getting to know it and making the odd 'improvement'...

Apologies if i sound like an idiot, any advice would be very welcome.
Ive also looked at a Maxum 1900 and Regal ??? but we thought they were a bit small for friends and family to come out.

Thanks
Jim

 

[julians]

You may have already considered this, so apologies if you have, but have you thought about where it will be kept?

If in a marina you may find that the 260 sundancer being bigger than the 230 overnighter takes you in to the next mooring size up, which will have an increase in costs, which you may want to factor in to your thinking.

All other things being equal, a longer/heavier boat should handle a bigger sea better than a smaller/lighter boat.

And from your description (ie the odd overnight stay, a galley nice to have), it sound like the 260 would be more suitable for you. I havent driven either , but I'd expect the 230 to be more fun to drive than the 260, but I doubt theres much in it.

You'll quickly get used to handling the 260, so I wouldnt let concerns about close quarters maneuvering put you off.

What engines are in each boat? This could be a significant deciding factor, especially if you want to waterski/tow things

Dont forget fuel costs, they can be significant. My old 20 foot sea ray bow rider (5.0 petrol), would use about 25-30 litres per hour at cruising speed.

American boats from that year (assuming petrol engines) had the old style wet joint exhaust manifolds, which need to be replaced every few years, so make sure you factor this in to your buying decision. If they are not replaced and they fail, they can cause significant expense (ie total rebuild of engine)

 

[rafiki_]

Our first boat was a 22 ft Searay Cuddy. We kept her for 4 months, before trading up to a 25 ft cruiser. The Cuddy just wasn't good for anything except a day boat. We were too tall to use the Cuddy, so it was an easy decision for us. Your experience may be different, but just sharing my personal learning.

 

[lisilou]

Personally I'd go for the bigger of the two if using it the way you describe. We started with a 21ft Monterey cuddy which for us was a fantastic starter boat and great fun and allowed us to 'test the water' so to speak but like Rafiki, we soon traded for a bigger one which in our case was a 28ft Monterey. This allowed us to stay on her for longer and in much less cramped accommodation. I also had electric hookup which, for us, was a must. Does the cuddy have electric?
TBH and just my opinion...I'd go for as big as you can comfortably afford (factoring in berthing costs of course).
L

 

[crazy4557]

If you have 'numerous coves and bays within 3nm' then your fuel costs will be insignificant in relation to other costs. Marina, insurance, yearly haul out and antifoul/anodes/possible prop refurbishment/servicing and engine repairs are all lump sum costs whereas fuel is occasional so less noticeable. Your main costs will probably be mechanical then electrical then everything else.
If it's financially marginal in your mind now then reality will be much more and can spoil the experience if you don't have the funds. My advice is do as much as possible yourself and learn as much as you can about bits that are alien to you. These sorts of boats are relatively basic so fairly easy to maintain once you have the knowledge.

Trouble is this hobby's addictive to most of us and then you're on a slippery slope!!

I hope you enjoy the experience and please let us know how you get on and ask away on here for almost anything boat related :encouragement:

 

[JimJimney]

Hi Julian,
thanks for the thoughts and taking the time to reply.

Its a very good point re the marina costs, ill definitely look into that, im told its around 5-600 Euros a month so its not inconsiderable! There is a smaller marina (cheaper) down the road and ive just emailed them too. I guess we could use the ramp and trailer it too and from but i thought i wanted it in the water or it becomes a bigger faf getting down to play.
Ill look at the engine sizes too, the 230 had i think a 7L V8 Mercruiser, im fairly sure it was the biggest available for that year. Which im guessing would be great fun but juicier. I think i read that you can expect to use 10 US gallons per hour at cruising speed. Yes fuel costs are definately a concern, especially as im told 'just cause you can afford to buy a boat doesnt mean you can afford to run one' or something to that effect.

Regarding handling a bigger sea, Formentera the Balearic Island is within striking distance from us. So although im not confident to attempt such a trip yet, im sure by the end of summer id like to give it a go, a tick in the box of the 260 (or even 290?)

Thankyou re the exhaust manifold too.
Jim

 

[JimJimney]

Hi, that makes complete sense for us too and given the hours im putting into getting a first boat i dont want to have to change up too soon! What was the 22 footer? Have you stayed with the 25ft. Did you find that big enough for you?
thanks

 

[JimJimney]

hi, yes this seems to be a theme of the advice im getting! I've looked at some many i cant remember if the cuddy had shore hook up. Im guessing not, i dont remember seeing the control panel for it. If we went for the 29 footer it would actually costs less (initially) as its my friends and hes given up on it! I know it needs some work though, its just how much!
Thanks

 

[JimJimney]

If you have 'numerous coves and bays within 3nm' then your fuel costs will be insignificant in relation to other costs. Marina, insurance, yearly haul out and antifoul/anodes/possible prop refurbishment/servicing and engine repairs are all lump sum costs whereas fuel is occasional so less noticeable. Your main costs will probably be mechanical then electrical then everything else.
If it's financially marginal in your mind now then reality will be much more and can spoil the experience if you don't have the funds. My advice is do as much as possible yourself and learn as much as you can about bits that are alien to you. These sorts of boats are relatively basic so fairly easy to maintain once you have the knowledge.

Trouble is this hobby's addictive to most of us and then you're on a slippery slope!!

I hope you enjoy the experience and please let us know how you get on and ask away on here for almost anything boat related :encouragement:

More wise words thanks (sorry if i replied without quoting the comment previously) , you are quite right re fuel costs vs maintenance costs and having so much locally means we might not go too far.
Im expecting some heavy costs so i think im going into it with the right attitude. Im thinking of getting in at a low price (15k euros) and planning on one season, if it goes well we'll continue. I also have friends who want to come in with me, but thats a different can of worms..!
Im certainly going to do as much as poss myself, as id like to learn how it all works, having done some crewing and maintenance on my Dads cat (years ago) i think i'll get to grips with it easy enough....
Thanks for your advice and the welcome. My experience of forums hasnt always been positive, so far so good here

 

[rafiki_]

Hi, that makes complete sense for us too and given the hours im putting into getting a first boat i dont want to have to change up too soon! What was the 22 footer? Have you stayed with the 25ft. Did you find that big enough for you?
thanks

The Cuddy was a Sea Ray. We kept the 25' Sunbird for 3 seasons. Took a break for a while, then bought a Sunline 31 sports cruiser, kept her for 6 years, and now have our Azimut 39. I don't think our journey is unusual, as you learn more about your boating, and what you can afford.

 

[Nick_H]

hi, yes this seems to be a theme of the advice im getting! I've looked at some many i cant remember if the cuddy had shore hook up. Im guessing not, i dont remember seeing the control panel for it. If we went for the 29 footer it would actually costs less (initially) as its my friends and hes given up on it! I know it needs some work though, its just how much!
Thanks

Part of the problem is that you won't know which bits of boating you like until you start, which is why so many people change boats after the first season.

For watersports, the smaller boat will be best. You can ski/wakeboard/ringo behind a 26/29 foot cruiser if the engines are big enough, but it's much more of a hassle, especially when teaching people.

On the other hand you may do a couple of trips to other marinas, anchor up for the day or overnight in a nearby cove and find that you enjoy cruising. In that case you want the biggest boat you can sensibly afford

 

[JimJimney]

Part of the problem is that you won't know which bits of boating you like until you start, which is why so many people change boats after the first season.

For watersports, the smaller boat will be best. You can ski/wakeboard/ringo behind a 26/29 foot cruiser if the engines are big enough, but it's much more of a hassle, especially when teaching people.

On the other hand you may do a couple of trips to other marinas, anchor up for the day or overnight in a nearby cove and find that you enjoy cruising. In that case you want the biggest boat you can sensibly afford

Yes, im trying to work out what we're likely to use it for. Its part of the battle isnt it. Ive emailed the friend who owns the 29 footer to consider that one now. I think we'll need a field trip to go and see it (its in a field!). Maybe we just bite he bullet and try and buy at the right price so if we want to change after a season we wont lose too much.

 

[JimJimney]

If you have 'numerous coves and bays within 3nm' then your fuel costs will be insignificant in relation to other costs. Marina, insurance, yearly haul out and antifoul/anodes/possible prop refurbishment/servicing and engine repairs are all lump sum costs whereas fuel is occasional so less noticeable. Your main costs will probably be mechanical then electrical then everything else.
If it's financially marginal in your mind now then reality will be much more and can spoil the experience if you don't have the funds. My advice is do as much as possible yourself and learn as much as you can about bits that are alien to you. These sorts of boats are relatively basic so fairly easy to maintain once you have the knowledge.

Trouble is this hobby's addictive to most of us and then you're on a slippery slope!!

I hope you enjoy the experience and please let us know how you get on and ask away on here for almost anything boat related :encouragement:

Sorry i was replying without quoting people before.
Thanks for the good wishes. With our local geography, (bays nearby) you are right maybe fuel consumption is less of a worry. It would be nice to get to the Balearics though, but then a bigger boat would be preferable.
I do intend to do much of the mechanical side myself, ive done some overland travel and like to be able to get myself out of tricky situations.
Financially we're ok if we overspend, im going into this with my eyes open. Let the slippery slope commence!

 

[Andy Bav]

Good luck with the search and nice problem to have. When you say it would be good to get to the Balearics does that mean you will be based on the mainland - perhaps around Denia in which case that means more of a cruise to get there and reliability / competence with the spanners comes into play more.

What we found, and echoing above comments, is that on our first boat we looked at others and said "wouldn't it be nice if we had a xxx" and we moved up quickly through to a cruiser and never regretted any decision.

They do say the smaller the boat the bigger the smile but I have to say since moving our cruiser to Spain our smile is as big as when we had a bowrider in Torbay.... But for much different reasons. Now if we had a base in Spain a cuddy would have been perfect for us... I think

I have found this forum a perfect resource for info so please keep us informed of progress and decisions you make... And when you take the plunge plenty of pictures.

Good luck

 

[JimJimney]

Good luck with the search and nice problem to have. When you say it would be good to get to the Balearics does that mean you will be based on the mainland - perhaps around Denia in which case that means more of a cruise to get there and reliability / competence with the spanners comes into play more.

What we found, and echoing above comments, is that on our first boat we looked at others and said "wouldn't it be nice if we had a xxx" and we moved up quickly through to a cruiser and never regretted any decision.

They do say the smaller the boat the bigger the smile but I have to say since moving our cruiser to Spain our smile is as big as when we had a bowrider in Torbay.... But for much different reasons. Now if we had a base in Spain a cuddy would have been perfect for us... I think

I have found this forum a perfect resource for info so please keep us informed of progress and decisions you make... And when you take the plunge plenty of pictures.

Good luck

Hello, what a lovely forum this is turning out to be!
Yes we are based in Moraira just south of Denia. I believe Formentera / Ibiza is 2/3 hours away. (ive just googled Formentera and my god the beaches looks like paradise! so i need something to safety get me there!)

Yes its not a bad problem to have is it Im enjoying the learning curve.
I think the plunge is imminent, ive just found a tidy 24 foot cruiser in UK with galley, head and 4 berths. Might be a squeeze!
Thanks

 

[spannerman]

You may find having a bigger boat can actually reduce fuel costs, by this I mean that if the boat is too small to comfortably overnight on you then end up doing lots of day trips with the same radius and then you may get bored of visiting the same places. But if it has enough room and a decent loo/shower (No1 on equipment list if you want the wife onboard!) and a basic galley, then if the weather looks set for the weekend you can go out and stay overnight, moving on the next day without all that wasted fuel burn backwards and forwards to the berth.
I once had a fantastic 4 day cruise with a Swedish girlfriend on a 26ft Bayliner weekend cruiser, I cruised up the fjords for about 25 miles to a group of islands and overnighted, then the next day cruised at idle speed around to a lagoon on the other side and stopped there, then moved to different islands for the next two nights, I used only about 5 gallons more than if I had just gone there for a day trip and burnt around 20 gallons, so the extra days were almost free and I got to use the boat as intended and saw more than I would in a daytrip. And the great thing is you often have the place to yourself after the daytrippers have gone home, and you can't beat sitting in the twilight with your arm around your loved one and a drink in the other, then turning in to be rocked to sleep by the odd wave. Then getting up early to see the sun shimmering over a glass like sea, and having egg and bacon and coffee and croissant on deck. it can be magical and addictive and I think some of the best trips are when you don't have to head for home after a day out. Hope you are happy with the choice you make and welcome to on of the last truly escapist activities.

 

[scottie]

Too big a petrol engine can be cured by not opening the throttle if you can resist it the larger block will not weigh significantly more and will get the boat on the plane earlier .

 

[JimJimney]

You may find having a bigger boat can actually reduce fuel costs, by this I mean that if the boat is too small to comfortably overnight on you then end up doing lots of day trips with the same radius and then you may get bored of visiting the same places. But if it has enough room and a decent loo/shower (No1 on equipment list if you want the wife onboard!) and a basic galley, then if the weather looks set for the weekend you can go out and stay overnight, moving on the next day without all that wasted fuel burn backwards and forwards to the berth.
I once had a fantastic 4 day cruise with a Swedish girlfriend on a 26ft Bayliner weekend cruiser, I cruised up the fjords for about 25 miles to a group of islands and overnighted, then the next day cruised at idle speed around to a lagoon on the other side and stopped there, then moved to different islands for the next two nights, I used only about 5 gallons more than if I had just gone there for a day trip and burnt around 20 gallons, so the extra days were almost free and I got to use the boat as intended and saw more than I would in a daytrip. And the great thing is you often have the place to yourself after the daytrippers have gone home, and you can't beat sitting in the twilight with your arm around your loved one and a drink in the other, then turning in to be rocked to sleep by the odd wave. Then getting up early to see the sun shimmering over a glass like sea, and having egg and bacon and coffee and croissant on deck. it can be magical and addictive and I think some of the best trips are when you don't have to head for home after a day out. Hope you are happy with the choice you make and welcome to on of the last truly escapist activities.

seriously! are you like the best boat salesman ever! Sun shimmering, bacon, croissant, Swedish Girlfriend..... you had me at bacon ))))))
I can certainly see the logic and i now 'need' a galley and head. When a mans gotta go, a mans gotta go!
You paint a magical picture. Next time you go anywhere can i fly out and join you
Ive just been looking at a 26ft Bayliner lying in Cambrideshire. Its old 1994 but looks immaculate and i prefer the styling to the Sea Ray, its also very cheap. Are Bayliners cheap for a reason...?
Thanks

 

[JimJimney]

Too big a petrol engine can be cured by not opening the throttle if you can resist it the larger block will not weigh significantly more and will get the boat on the plane earlier .

thanks, and if you / previous owners dont need to use its full power then , its been run at less than 100% capacity and so perhaps less wear and tear too??

 

[Nick_H]

Are Bayliners cheap for a reason...?

There are lots of happy Bayliner owners, but I think even they would accept they are built more to a price that some other makes, and that's reflected in used prices.

I can't help thinking you should look more closely at your mate's 29 footer. If the work needed is mainly cosmetic, then you may be surprised how cheaply you can transform a boats upholstery, and how well the GRP will polish up. On the other hand get the engine and especially the outdrive checked carefully, as repairs on these can quickly add up.