Adjusting Fully Battened Mainsails Compared to Standard Battened Mainsails + Vectra

[Deleted member 36384]

The mast is masthead rig, non adjustable backstay, single spreaders at right angle to the mast, cap shrouds with fore and aft lowers i.e. a standard cruising mast Bermudian sloop (with a cutter rig conversion, but not a true cutter rig). The current mainsail has standard battens, shelf with foot bolt rope, outhaul, flattener and Cunningham.

I like to adjust my sail trim and shape often and can change the the mainsail depth of camber and position using outhaul, halyard, flattener and Cunningham.

I am in the process of specifying a new mainsail and have learned that Cunningham, flattener and shelf are no longer built into mainsails (for about 20 years apparently).

The sailmaker has advised that for longevity and better shape in offshore cruising, in my price range, a material like Vectran / Polyester with loose foot, 3 x reefs, fully battened with Rutgesron batten car system would be recommended. I am almost convinced. A standard batten mainsail will not last as long because of the occasional flogging and will lose it's shape sooner.

I also have 5 lines at the back of my boom: outhaul, flattener and Reefs 1, 2 and 3. He suggested that I could put 4 reefs in which would give me more options for mainsail area / wind strengths. The flattener would be used as Reef No 1. I am sort of convinced.

My questions are: from a performance point of view, over variable wind strengths, does fully battened hold it's shape well? Do you still tweek halyard tension for camber position, or is it hard set by the full battens? Do you have to adjust batten tension or is it set when the sail is rigged. Can you change the depth of camber on a fully battened sail? Vectran is it the best way for a polyester sail longitivtiy before going to a laminate. Those who have changed from standard to full length battens and have done so for some time now, do you see performance maintained over a long period?

I get stuck in ruts and like what I am familiar with, so moving to a fully battened mainsail is a big decision for me. The new main will obviously perform better than the old one, because it's new. The full battens and cars are only an extra £900 compared to standard battens. What I don't want is to be sitting in light winds, with a bit of a chop and wished I could have a fuller mainsail to power through. i also appreciate that sailmakers would not still be offering fully battened if it was not a proven idea.

I don't want to discuss stack packs, I have one in storage should I feel the need to install it.

Thanks,

BlowingOldBoots

 

[Daydream believer]

The mast is masthead rig, non adjustable backstay, single spreaders at right angle to the mast, cap shrouds with fore and aft lowers i.e. a standard cruising mast Bermudian sloop (with a cutter rig conversion, but not a true cutter rig). The current mainsail has standard battens, shelf with foot bolt rope, outhaul, flattener and Cunningham.

I like to adjust my sail trim and shape often and can change the the mainsail depth of camber and position using outhaul, halyard, flattener and Cunningham.

I am in the process of specifying a new mainsail and have learned that Cunningham, flattener and shelf are no longer built into mainsails (for about 20 years apparently).

The sailmaker has advised that for longevity and better shape in offshore cruising, in my price range, a material like Vectran / Polyester with loose foot, 3 x reefs, fully battened with Rutgesron batten car system would be recommended. I am almost convinced. A standard batten mainsail will not last as long because of the occasional flogging and will lose it's shape sooner.

I also have 5 lines at the back of my boom: outhaul, flattener and Reefs 1, 2 and 3. He suggested that I could put 4 reefs in which would give me more options for mainsail area / wind strengths. The flattener would be used as Reef No 1. I am sort of convinced.

My questions are: from a performance point of view, over variable wind strengths, does fully battened hold it's shape well? Do you still tweek halyard tension for camber position, or is it hard set by the full battens? Do you have to adjust batten tension or is it set when the sail is rigged. Can you change the depth of camber on a fully battened sail? Vectran is it the best way for a polyester sail longitivtiy before going to a laminate. Those who have changed from standard to full length battens and have done so for some time now, do you see performance maintained over a long period?

I get stuck in ruts and like what I am familiar with, so moving to a fully battened mainsail is a big decision for me. The new main will obviously perform better than the old one, because it's new. The full battens and cars are only an extra £900 compared to standard battens. What I don't want is to be sitting in light winds, with a bit of a chop and wished I could have a fuller mainsail to power through. i also appreciate that sailmakers would not still be offering fully battened if it was not a proven idea.

I don't want to discuss stack packs, I have one in storage should I feel the need to install it.

Thanks,

BlowingOldBoots

I had a new mainsail last year - Hyde Fibrecon- with 4 battens, 28 M2. The battens help the stackpack ( sorry I know you said do not mention stackpacks) the battens are tensioned at start of season.They are set from the cars & are flush at the leech.
I have cunningham eye. I have a fully grooved foot but actually wanted a one third grooved one for several reasons. I had a central 1 third foot on the last Hyde sail & could get a nice full shape.
I have a11/12 rig so can play with the shape a lot & the battens do not prevent this. I can get quite full or quite flat & control twist
I like the battens & if I had a choice would always have them, but the cars can be a pain as I have to go head to wind to raise & lower the sail. When I do that it drops instantly but will not do so if off the wind. Discuss them with your sail maker

 

[westhinder]

I had new sails made one and a half seasons ago. Main fully battened best quality dacron, genoa hybrid dacron/dyneema, which is the same as Vectran.
Main fully battened as I was very satisfied with the previous fully battened main. The change from a conventional mainsail had been huge: good shape and no flogging, so it kept its shape for a very long time. My sailmaker thought that thanks to the stability of the full battens it was not necessary to opt for vectran and I agreed with him as the previous main had kept its shape for so long. The shape of the new main is great, the lower part can be flattened well with the outhaul. I can wait longer before I need a reef. Three reefs, the third being deeper than on the previous main, meant that we had to fit 5 battens in stead of 4, with Rutgerson cars.
For the genoa we did opt for Vectran because I wantend both good shape holding and durability and my sailmaker advised against a laminate on grounds of durability and avoiding mould. The new shape took some getting used to with different positions for the sheet cars, but 3000 miles on I am quite satisfied.

 

[nortada]

The mast is masthead rig, non adjustable backstay, single spreaders at right angle to the mast, cap shrouds with fore and aft lowers i.e. a standard cruising mast Bermudian sloop (with a cutter rig conversion, but not a true cutter rig). The current mainsail has standard battens, shelf with foot bolt rope, outhaul, flattener and Cunningham.

I like to adjust my sail trim and shape often and can change the the mainsail depth of camber and position using outhaul, halyard, flattener and Cunningham.

I am in the process of specifying a new mainsail and have learned that Cunningham, flattener and shelf are no longer built into mainsails (for about 20 years apparently).

The sailmaker has advised that for longevity and better shape in offshore cruising, in my price range, a material like Vectran / Polyester with loose foot, 3 x reefs, fully battened with Rutgesron batten car system would be recommended. I am almost convinced. A standard batten mainsail will not last as long because of the occasional flogging and will lose it's shape sooner.

I also have 5 lines at the back of my boom: outhaul, flattener and Reefs 1, 2 and 3. He suggested that I could put 4 reefs in which would give me more options for mainsail area / wind strengths. The flattener would be used as Reef No 1. I am sort of convinced.

My questions are: from a performance point of view, over variable wind strengths, does fully battened hold it's shape well? Do you still tweek halyard tension for camber position, or is it hard set by the full battens? Do you have to adjust batten tension or is it set when the sail is rigged. Can you change the depth of camber on a fully battened sail? Vectran is it the best way for a polyester sail longitivtiy before going to a laminate. Those who have changed from standard to full length battens and have done so for some time now, do you see performance maintained over a long period?

I get stuck in ruts and like what I am familiar with, so moving to a fully battened mainsail is a big decision for me. The new main will obviously perform better than the old one, because it's new. The full battens and cars are only an extra £900 compared to standard battens. What I don't want is to be sitting in light winds, with a bit of a chop and wished I could have a fuller mainsail to power through. i also appreciate that sailmakers would not still be offering fully battened if it was not a proven idea.

I don't want to discuss stack packs, I have one in storage should I feel the need to install it.

Thanks,

BlowingOldBoots

You have just described my mainsail rig for the past 20 years.

Works well.

 

[Bobc]

Your sailmaker is right. Go with his suggestions.

 

[Concerto]

I have a Vectran main and genoa that were made 2 years ago. The main is fully battened with a loose foot. I had wanted a fitted foot but advised against as it would not set as well. The main is ¾ rig and it very easy to adjust to change shape.

One aside. Are you having a new furling genoa as well? Then ask how they make the leech. The cheaper way is 4 layers of material including the sacrificial strip, compared to the standard method of 6 layers of material. It costs slightly more for the 6 layers, but makes the replacement of the sacrificial strip a lot easier and cheaper to do.

 

[charles_reed]

The mast is masthead rig, non adjustable backstay, single spreaders at right angle to the mast, cap shrouds with fore and aft lowers i.e. a standard cruising mast Bermudian sloop (with a cutter rig conversion, but not a true cutter rig). The current mainsail has standard battens, shelf with foot bolt rope, outhaul, flattener and Cunningham.

I like to adjust my sail trim and shape often and can change the the mainsail depth of camber and position using outhaul, halyard, flattener and Cunningham.

I am in the process of specifying a new mainsail and have learned that Cunningham, flattener and shelf are no longer built into mainsails (for about 20 years apparently).

The sailmaker has advised that for longevity and better shape in offshore cruising, in my price range, a material like Vectran / Polyester with loose foot, 3 x reefs, fully battened with Rutgesron batten car system would be recommended. I am almost convinced. A standard batten mainsail will not last as long because of the occasional flogging and will lose it's shape sooner.

I also have 5 lines at the back of my boom: outhaul, flattener and Reefs 1, 2 and 3. He suggested that I could put 4 reefs in which would give me more options for mainsail area / wind strengths. The flattener would be used as Reef No 1. I am sort of convinced.

My questions are: from a performance point of view, over variable wind strengths, does fully battened hold it's shape well? Do you still tweek halyard tension for camber position, or is it hard set by the full battens? Do you have to adjust batten tension or is it set when the sail is rigged. Can you change the depth of camber on a fully battened sail? Vectran is it the best way for a polyester sail longitivtiy before going to a laminate. Those who have changed from standard to full length battens and have done so for some time now, do you see performance maintained over a long period?

I get stuck in ruts and like what I am familiar with, so moving to a fully battened mainsail is a big decision for me. The new main will obviously perform better than the old one, because it's new. The full battens and cars are only an extra £900 compared to standard battens. What I don't want is to be sitting in light winds, with a bit of a chop and wished I could have a fuller mainsail to power through. i also appreciate that sailmakers would not still be offering fully battened if it was not a proven idea.

I don't want to discuss stack packs, I have one in storage should I feel the need to install it.

Thanks,

BlowingOldBoots

I've had a Vektran mainsail for the last 4 years.
It replaced a 23-year old fully battened Polyester mainsail.
I must correct your apparent misapprehension that Vektran and Dacron are the same.

The Vektran mainsail is considerable heavier and more powerful than the polyester main it replaced.
It is more difficult and awkward to stow. Having a very large main and sail single-handed, I have 4 reefs, the first two being single-line reefs.
I would certainly never revert to to a non-full battened main - a fully battened main is slightly more difficult to handle than a conventional main, but considerably more powerful, in fact the reason for multiple reefs is down to the greater drive, compared to a conventional Dacron sail.
The relative advantages/disadvantages of Vectran over other fibres is contained in this Wikipedia bar-chart.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailcloth

You need no Cunningham or flattening reef with a fully battened main, use the outhaul to flatten - but its a waste of time trying to increase camber. You'll do well to add a reef, the drive from the full-battened main is so much greater than a conventional main.

PS I've done about 40K nautical miles over the 28 years I've had this boat, now down to about 2.5K nm per season in Greek waters

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Thanks everyone for the information. I will settle on fully battened and finalise the specification with 4 reefs, sail numbers and logo. Material offered is Dimension-Polyant Vectron, cost cut of course not being a laminate. Estimate is £3200 + VAT for 3 reefs, is that ball park or OTT? The sail maker has a good reputation but can be more expensive than the others up this way.

 

[DJE]

Price looks comparable to my new Vectran mainsail which is 33sq.m. and was about £4000 last winter. How big is your sail?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Price looks comparable to my new Vectran mainsail which is 33sq.m. and was about £4000 last winter. How big is your sail?

24.1 sq. m.

 

[pandroid]

I've had a fully battened main for many years. I think they are a superior sail and would have one again, but a few drawbacks have not been mentioned:
a) If you are a real inveterate tweaker, it can be harder to change the sail shape. This is set by the tension on the batten, which can only be changed when the sail is down,
b)The battens can create more weight aloft. That can cause the sail to slam when the wind is very light and you are in any kind of sea.
c) You definitely need a stackpack (or at least lazyjacks) to manage the sail when its down.

Some of the most recent designs may mitigate some of these issues.

 

[Daydream believer]

24.1 sq. m.

My fibrecon sail -7.7 oz - 28M2- 3 reefs- 4 full battens- upgraded cars, cunningham was £ 3800-00 less a winter discount last year.. All made to same dimensions that I discussed & agreed with sailmaker on an earlier sail- which they had measured to fit 7 years before -plus some minor changes this time. The shape can be varied quite easily from flat to full , but I do not have masthead rig more 11/12
Very pleased with it.

 

[lw395]

I've had a fully battened main for many years. I think they are a superior sail and would have one again, but a few drawbacks have not been mentioned:
a) If you are a real inveterate tweaker, it can be harder to change the sail shape. This is set by the tension on the batten, which can only be changed when the sail is down,
b)The battens can create more weight aloft. That can cause the sail to slam when the wind is very light and you are in any kind of sea.
c) You definitely need a stackpack (or at least lazyjacks) to manage the sail when its down.

Some of the most recent designs may mitigate some of these issues.

I'd agree the weight of battens can be an issue.
Disagree about the sail shape. Even with the OP's straight non-adjestable mast, a good fully battened sail will adjust quite well with outhaul and leech tension.
It is worth considering the amount of roach to have. FB sails can carry more (subject to backstay interference) and this gives a lot more control as the roach translates leech shape into twist. A good sail with more roach may point better, but you have to bear in mind the balance of the rig.

I don't agree about stack packs, a good FB sail is very easy to flake with the batten cars keeping the luff in place. Maybe 'How will it flake?' is another question to check with the sailmaker. Because full battens often poke out the back of the sail they can be a PITA with lazy jacks.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I ..... a good fully battened sail will adjust quite well with outhaul and leech tension. .....

I sail has been specified on the preliminary quote with an over the head leach line, which I assume is like an old leach line but comes down the luff to the tack for easier adjustment, instead of being adjusted at the clew.

I have only ever used a leach line to take the flutter out of a stretched leach. Does the leach line on a fully battened main contribute to sail trim? I thought the kicker (6 part block on my boat) would deal with roach twist.

I will be asking the sailmaker these questions but at this stage just trying to get clued up.

 

[Daydream believer]

I don't agree about stack packs, a good FB sail is very easy to flake with the batten cars keeping the luff in place. Maybe 'How will it flake?' is another question to check with the sailmaker. Because full battens often poke out the back of the sail they can be a PITA with lazy jacks.

I have now had 3 mainsails with full length battens & they all tension from within the car meaning that they sit flush with the leech

 

[Daydream believer]

I sail has been specified on the preliminary quote with an over the head leach line, which I assume is like an old leach line but comes down the luff to the tack for easier adjustment, instead of being adjusted at the clew.

I have only ever used a leach line to take the flutter out of a stretched leach. Does the leach line on a fully battened main contribute to sail trim? I thought the kicker (6 part block on my boat) would deal with roach twist.

I will be asking the sailmaker these questions but at this stage just trying to get clued up.

On my last 2 sails the leech line has had a cleat at each reef point so that if necessary it can be re adjusted after the reef has been put in. If there is a single adjustment at the clew it would not be adjustable after a reef was applied.
never seen one returned to the luff so cannot comment on that option
It should only be used to removed flutter- which on a new sail should not exist anyway- come to that it should not happen until the sail is well worn if at all

 

[DJE]

24.1 sq. m.

Just to be clear mine is not fully battened which is probably why it was cheaper per square metre. It has 3/4 length tapered battens on the advice of my sailmaker so that it responds to tweaking like a conventional sail but flakes in the lazy jacks like a fully battened sail. I had my doubts but so far it is working out very well.

 

[richardbrennan]

Be careful about the fittings.

My previous fully battened main tensioned the battens with webbing straps and wedges at the mast. to remove the battens, one simply removed the wedges and slid them out. My current sail has screw adjustment for tension, also at the mast, but to remove the battens one has to undo the fittings at the leach, which consist of six small nuts and bolts, and this is a real PITA.

 

[lw395]

On my last 2 sails the leech line has had a cleat at each reef point so that if necessary it can be re adjusted after the reef has been put in. If there is a single adjustment at the clew it would not be adjustable after a reef was applied.
never seen one returned to the luff so cannot comment on that option
It should only be used to removed flutter- which on a new sail should not exist anyway- come to that it should not happen until the sail is well worn if at all

In the distant past I recall leach lines on FB sails with lots of reach being tightened to get extra fullness high up. I think we might be talking about the days of 'genuine hickoy' battens though?

 

[TLouth7]

Out of interest, is adjustable mast bend not required to vary sail fullness (camber) at the top of a fully battened sail? Relevant because OP has a masthead rig, while a number of replies are from those with fractional rigs.