Action needed - NOW!!

[Dave_Snelson]

Calling all LPG heads (like me). If you have read MBM, you'll note that Calor are to issue a statemet in the new year on their intentions for LPG. This does not sound good.

If you are out there with LPG, PM me and we must start some reasoned lobby. I have some time off over Christmas and New Year, lets see what we can do.

Kim H - Can you help? Do you know contacts in the RYA or Environment Agency that could sway the argument in our favour?

<hr width=100% size=1>Madoc Yacht Club
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.madocyachtclub.co.uk>http://www.madocyachtclub.co.uk</A>

 

[Talbot]

Heard a rumour that that lovely chappy Gordon Brown is intending to put tax on LPG for cars - that will kill it off nicely Thank god boat and cars are all diesel /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Solitaire]

In some ways, I'm glad my engine gave up the ghost and I had to go to diesel. I hear the death knell of LPG I'm afraid. I know the guy mentioned in the article - where I kept my boat! They sell more LPG then anybody but may only keep it for 2004.

<hr width=100% size=1>Boating is <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.powerboat-training.co.uk>Serious</A> Fun

 

[Dave_Snelson]

Yeah, but red diesel's for the chop as well...

<hr width=100% size=1>Madoc Yacht Club
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.madocyachtclub.co.uk>http://www.madocyachtclub.co.uk</A>

 

[PGD]

PM sent lets look at the facts and see if we can draw up a suitable plan.

regards

peter

<hr width=100% size=1>Complete the Consumer Survey <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.mssa.org.uk>http://www.mssa.org.uk</A> Marine Service Standards Assistance

 

[tcm]

Re: Doom

The RYA has done very well in pressurising the govt to keep red diesel. But I fear that it is doomed to go.

This government (and perhaps others we may get) are convinced that governing things is such a worthwhile task that it must be done as much as possible as often as possible, and all this governing costs money. So, the taxes go up to pay for the extra governing. More governing is "investing in public services" and less governing means "cuts" which is obviously very bad indeed. If we didn't have an NHS for example then obviously we'd all drop dead on the spot, it'd be like america, the doctors would all leave....yet there's a new Accident and emergency outfit in london that charges and it's all nice and quick, £20 for this, £30 quid for that, no 2 hour waits at all.

Oh sure, G Brown etc blathers on about teachers etc but local governments employ a hundred other people for every one full-time teacher, and there are half a million more civil servants than there was 1 year ago.

Anyway, abolishing red diesel is an opportunity to charge some tax on things and hardly affect the inflation or less well-off, so they are sure to take it. In the hugely unlikely position of me ever being Somebody (or anybody) in a labour government, i would do it straight away.

Meanwhile, the gap between the rich and poor has increased. oh heck. I once had a race against Seb Coe, you know, and the gap between us after 2 seconds was ten metres. Fortunately, the government acted very quickly and instantaneoulsy ploughed forty billion quids into an equal opportunities scheme, launched lots of sports initiatives, ran some adverts on TV and annnounced that we should really try and have 50% of people joining sports clubs. But after 4 seconds, seb coe was thirty metres ahead. Bastard. He is depriving me and other of the right to be succesful at whatever i might choose, even though i am a bit crap at running, used to skive games and can't be arsed to do any training. I have also found out that the top sports clubs and coaches discrimate in favour of those who can run fast already, which is disgraceful, as it puts other people like me at a further massive disadvantage in winning a gold medal.

ahem, i've gone of on one again. Nurse!



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

Re: Doom

>>>
Anyway, abolishing red diesel is an opportunity to charge some tax on things and hardly affect the inflation or less well-off, so they are sure to take it. In the hugely unlikely position of me ever being Somebody (or anybody) in a labour government, i would do it straight away
>>>
I wonder what fuss the hire boat industry will make. Putting their fuel costs up by umpty percent won't help them at all. On a health service salary red diesel makes a boat _just about_ affordable. Moving to white diesel would make me think seriously about selling the boat and going back to land based hobbies.

I wonder how much extra money the government could expect from taxing red diesel. Given that it would simply become white diesel and charged at road proces, anything else would be too complex. After the costs of the civil servants to administrate it all, and keep track of the tax reimbursement claims from the commercial users I doubt that there would be anything left over.

<hr width=100% size=1>Two beers please, my friend is paying.

 

[longjohnsilver]

Re: Doom

We'll just bring loads back from the CIs, even cheaper over there!

Stuff the bloody govt, put em all in a spaceship and send em to Mars or better still Uranus, they'd feel most at home there!

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MedDreamer]

Re: Doom

It will be an ideological issue as well as a fiscal one. The hireboat industry is not big enough to count frankly. The Greens on the other hand are and the sight of all these middle class people enjoying themselves cheaply will be too much for a good socialist chancellor to stomach (To be honest though I am not sure the Tories would be any more supportive).

Don't expect too much support from the anti MoBo RYA either - remember the stirling work they did on behalf of the Windermere powerboat fraternity - you don't remember? - Exactly.

Lets face it, if we were looking neutrally from the outside, the fact that the working man has to pay around 80p per litre to get to work in his car but the relatively wealthy boat owner can waste fuel at 25p per litre does look a bit strange.

I would be astounded if the tax break for leisure boating remains in place.

Martyn




<hr width=100% size=1>Do you think a Fleming 55 would look out of place on Windermere?

 

[MedDreamer]

<< Do you know contacts in the RYA or Environment Agency that could sway the argument in our favour? >>

Your not serious Dave are you? The RYA might get interested if they taxed the wind or canvass and I think you would have more chance of getting Jonathan Porritt on your side than the Environment Agency

Martyn


<hr width=100% size=1>Do you think a Fleming 55 would look out of place on Windermere?

 

[penfold]

Re: Doom

Isn't there the small matter of every other poor bugger who happens to use Red diesel for commercial purposes; fishermen (if we have any left), shipping(other than deepsea), agriculture, construction industry, etc? These guys all use large quantities of the red stuff, far more than the leisure boat market. Won't they be a little disgruntled at being shafted in this way? If they try and restrict the use of reduced tax diesel to commercial enterprises such as these, it will just result in a big black market, with lots of fraud, and joe taxpayer gets it in the wallet to pay for more C&E bods who'll fail abysmally in their sworn mission to curb it. Politicians who come up with unenforcible laws should be publically humiliated, preferably with the aid of some stocks and a lot of rotten fruit & veg. Dogbert for supreme ruler of the world, and out with the demons of stupidity.

Ooh, quick nurse; the screens!
This going off on one is catching.

cheers,
david

<hr width=100% size=1>I employed you people to get a little railroad laid, not to dance around like Kansas City faggots!

 

[MedDreamer]

Re: Doom

<<Politicians who come up with unenforcible laws should be publically humiliated>>

Haven't got time to respond now as I'm on my way out but I'll give you a ring when I'm driving

<hr width=100% size=1>Do you think a Fleming 55 would look out of place on Windermere?

 

[kimhollamby]

Dave,

I'm not aware of anyone in the RYA having taken a stance on LPG before but Andrew Norton is probably your first port of call. He monitors this forum regularly.

The Environment Agency has, through the auspices of the BSS, done its best to dissuade the use of LPG on boats so I think you can forget that organisation.

The two most involved journalists this end are Neale Byart on MBM, who has a gas-powered boat, and Jake Kavanagh, now on PBO, who tracked the rise of LPG when features editor on MBM. I'll ping them to make sure they are aware of this thread.



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[neale]

Dave

I am talking to the powers that be, at Calor at the moment. Their latest stance is that they will reveiw each site and assess its viability. Basically if a site is not shifting any or only very little gas, then i'm afraid it looks like it may go.
Calor assured me that they would like to, and plan to keep a usable network in place.

I think it is a safe bet that this time next year there will not be as many filling options as there are now. I think we need to accept that and look at retaining enough so that it is still viable for us end users. For example in the east, where I am based we have gas at places like Tollesbury which is only ever going to be used by someone who keeps their boat there, as everyone else on the Blackwater will go to Bradwell (easier to get in and out of). So we could probably lose Tollesbury, Medway, and maybe Walton and keep Levington, Bradwell, Essex marina and Gillingham meaning that the network has almost halved but there is still a nice geographical spread. I am sure the same could apply in the Solent. It would be nice if the stand alone sites like Dover, Brighton, Torquay, Plymouth and Falmouth could stay as it is these that make LPG usable for long distance cruising, and for those who keep their boats in these marinas, there is no other choice.

Quite simply, the easiest way to convince Calor and the marinas to keep them is if we all get out there and use them, and I mean now!!! There is not much time left, but if an installation is shifting enough gas to make the right people some profit, is is more likely to stay than one which is costing Calor money to maintain and costing the Marina, by way of space, and is only selling 100 ltrs per year.

It's use it or lose it time I'm afraid.

Neale




<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Dave_Snelson]

I'm clutching at straws Martyn

<hr width=100% size=1>Madoc Yacht Club
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.madocyachtclub.co.uk>http://www.madocyachtclub.co.uk</A>

 

[Andrew_Fanner]

The hireboat indistry being small may well be the case, but quite concentrated in places like the Broads, where there is limited alternative employment. Plus quite a lot of liveaboard narrowboater types are otherwise Green/Tony's Wonderful types too.

As for the working man's 80p/litre, take the bus. I do, 'cos I don't drive

Tax association football properly instead, make more money and be better for everybody!

<hr width=100% size=1>Two beers please, my friend is paying.

 

[Dave_Snelson]

Re: Doom

Martyn - I don't wish to be argumentative but the whole issue on fuel duty is deliberately clouded (obfuscation - a great word). The duty on such fuels is ROAD DUTY - and that's the point that we must make people focus on in this debate. Boats don't go on roads, so why the imposition of road duty? Its a deliberate ploy by this government who seeks to govern by confusing the real issues.

<hr width=100% size=1>Madoc Yacht Club
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.madocyachtclub.co.uk>http://www.madocyachtclub.co.uk</A>

 

[MedDreamer]

The question to ask is are these areas marginal labour parliamentary seats. If the answer in no then they do not count. The government will just roll out "the Polluters must pay".

In reality will it make much difference to the hireboaters? They will just pass the cost on to the customer and given the amount of fuel used pottering up and down the Broads the cost per person will be negligable any unlikely to deter anyone who wants a holiday afloat.

Sorry if I sound negative but like I said elsewhere we need to get real (or get sailing!!)

Martyn



<hr width=100% size=1>Do you think a Fleming 55 would look out of place on Windermere?

 

[MedDreamer]

Re: Doom

Dave

We taxpayers fund many government lawyers so that the government can pick at any arguement that gets in their way.

Technically you may be currently right but they will probably just move the goalposts. If the government decide it should happen then it will happen - there is hardly likely to be a left-wing backbench revolt on this methinks.

But...we do live in a democracy and have a right to be heard so best of luck with your campaign (I'm petrol anyway!)

Martyn

<hr width=100% size=1>Do you think a Fleming 55 would look out of place on Windermere?

 

[penfold]

On that basis are there any Labour MPs with MoBo manufacturers in their constituencies? You could start by sending them advance commiserations for when they have to find another job after the next election!

cheers,
david

<hr width=100% size=1>I employed you people to get a little railroad laid, not to dance around like Kansas City faggots!