Acte de Francisation in France- Proof of V.A.T.?

[steveghoward]

Just paid the deposit on a 1998 sailing yacht in France with the balance due the end of this week.

When enquiring about the T.V.A. (vat) status, the broker stated that, as the yacht had a current A de F book, there was nothing to worry about as this was the proof required in France that the relevant tax has been paid. He has scanned a copy of the book to me.

Does anyone know if this is actually the case?

Best to be cautious. . . . . . .

Thanks in advance

 

[davids0865]

Not quite actual proof, however, it is not possible to register a boat in France without it being TVA paid, so the broker is correct.

 

[scoty]

for people buying in spain,,,it·s the same,,(well almost) the end result is this important bit, all boats have to be registered and to register IVA /VAT has to be proof paided.

 

[richardbayle]

Broker is correct

 

[jimbaerselman]

Broker is correct

+1.

That's true of most registries in Europe where registration is compulsory. It's proof of title, proof that VAT is paid, and proof of nationality. There's a life-long file with each boat's history gathering dust in many a "registered port" on the continent. That's why most European boat authorities don't bother to ask for proof of VAT payment from EU registered vessels. Little do they realise the convenient weaknesses of SSB. HMRC, on the other hand, knows all about these wheezes . . .

 

[Tranona]

And of course a boat can potentially incur a further liability for VAT if it leaves the EU at any time after VAT was paid. So just like a VAT receipt, all it shows is that VAT was due on that transaction, or in the case of registration showing that at that point in time there was evidence it had been paid.

The uncertainty about the future is one of the reasons why HMRC no longer issue any form of certification based on past paper, only issuing receipts when VAT has been paid direct to them (for example on an import).

However if other customs are prepared to accept this as evidence, who are we to argue?

Interesting aside the Greek registry did not seem to want evidence of VAT payments on my (non VAT paid) charter boat, nor evidence that I paid VAT when it was removed from the Greek registry. All I have is the receipt from the Greek VAT registered management company.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Interesting aside the Greek registry did not seem to want evidence of VAT payments on my (non VAT paid) charter boat, nor evidence that I paid VAT when it was removed from the Greek registry. All I have is the receipt from the Greek VAT registered management company.

The Greek company, being VAT registered, has to account for VAT received on any sales of stock or capital goods. You don't !

 

[tcm]

Yep agreed re original question. There is no mechanism to "reclaim" the VAT in France as there is in the wild west er UK, so a VAT invoice in the UK frinstance, even if stamped "paid" and showing a bank statement... could still mean the VAT has later been reclaimed.

You of course need to re-register the boat in the UK pronto - otherwise the annual blimmin french "sailing tax" comes in, and for as long as it is French flaged it's subject t rules about the gear carried which police can check, not sorta recommendations as per UK...

 

[davids0865]

There is no mechanism to "reclaim" the VAT in France as there is in the wild west er UK

Not quite sure what you are saying here, I run a TVA registered business in France and if the boat was part of my business I would be able to reclaim the TVA paid at purchase and indeed on the fuel, just as I do on my van, digger etc.

 

[Tranona]

Yep agreed re original question. There is no mechanism to "reclaim" the VAT in France as there is in the wild west er UK, so a VAT invoice in the UK frinstance, even if stamped "paid" and showing a bank statement... could still mean the VAT has later been reclaimed.

Don't think that's true. VAT works the same across the EU and VAT can be reclaimed if the boat is a business asset, or if the boat is immediately exported outside the EU by a private person. However in France in particular there are more ways of avoiding all or part of the VAT on a new boat in ways that are not acceptable in the UK, so buyers of certain types of boats should be extra careful. Exactly the same as UK if the boat leaves the EU it is potentially liable for VAT again when it re-enters if the rules are not followed.

 

[Sybarite]

Yep agreed re original question. There is no mechanism to "reclaim" the VAT in France as there is in the wild west er UK, so a VAT invoice in the UK frinstance, even if stamped "paid" and showing a bank statement... could still mean the VAT has later been reclaimed.

You of course need to re-register the boat in the UK pronto - otherwise the annual blimmin french "sailing tax" comes in, and for as long as it is French flaged it's subject t rules about the gear carried which police can check, not sorta recommendations as per UK...

If the boat is based in France, the French sailing tax (vignette) is payable, irrespective of the flag. In this case the boat must have a "passeport".

 

[Steve C Cronin]

The Greek company, being VAT registered, has to account for VAT received on any sales of stock or capital goods. You don't !

My neighbour did not pay a single cent of VAT when he took his boat out of charter with a well known operator in 2004. Another further down the pontoon DID, with the same company. Enay Hellas!

 

[jimbaerselman]

My neighbour did not pay a single cent of VAT when he took his boat out of charter with a well known operator in 2004. Another further down the pontoon DID, with the same company. Enay Hellas!

So?

In both cases, to de-register from a company, a bill of sale has to be shown. If the company is VAT registered, the amount is deemed by the tax office to include VAT, which has to be credited to the tax office.

Of course, the company can advertise the price to a buyer either as VAT paid, or VAT to be paid. In the end (excepting the possibility of reclaiming through export) the total amount received by the seller will be the same. It either comes in two packets, one labelled "Price" and one "VAT". Or one, labelled "including VAT". Figuratively speaking, of course.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

So?

In both cases, to de-register from a company, a bill of sale has to be shown. If the company is VAT registered, the amount is deemed by the tax office to include VAT, which has to be credited to the tax office.

Of course, the company can advertise the price to a buyer either as VAT paid, or VAT to be paid. In the end (excepting the possibility of reclaiming through export) the total amount received by the seller will be the same. It either comes in two packets, one labelled "Price" and one "VAT". Or one, labelled "including VAT". Figuratively speaking, of course.

No. He and his co-owner just paid the contractural amount as laid down in the original agreement, telling them that he would sort out the tax himself, which he never did. This of course means that he has no proof of VAT paid. Our other neighbour feels somewhat agrieved by this and is even giving some thought to the possibility that the charter company simply pocketed HIS VAT payment although he DOES have what looks like an official VAT receipt from a tax office in Athens.

 

[Tranona]

The law changed in either 2001 or 2002. Prior to that charter boats were sold usually with a certificate from the tax authorities saying that it was deemed VAT paid. The EU forced the government to change the policy. Inevitably there was variable practice on how VAT was collected and I know at least one VAT office was still accepting separate payments for VAT in 2004. There was confusion as to how the VAT was calculated and I think from memory it was 2005 before I got confirmation of the method used to value the boat for VAT. There was an extra complication in my case because I paid for my boat in DM in 2001 and the contract value was recalculated at the official DM/Euro rate when the Euro came in. In £sterling terms it cost me an extra £1000+ over the sterling value of my original purchase. The charter company provided a detailed breakdown of all the charges and a VAT invoice showing the amount of VAT paid (in 2008).

So, it does not surprise me that in 2004 a boat was transferred without VAT being paid. There are many ex charter boats in circulation that have not had VAT paid on them - most pre 2002 so legal. As time goes on the lack of a VAT invoice becomes less and less important as the chances of it being an issue get smaller. More recent, higher value boats are a different story, particularly if you want to sell in another country where a good ownership trail and evidence of VAT is important.