A question for sailing cat experts/fans please

Robin

Robin

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In our ongoing brainstorming for live aboard boat ideas, ranging from mobo to sail to mobo and all stations in between, we have seen, albeit only online, a couple of nice looking Prout Snowgoose (Snowgeese?) cats. One has twin saildrive inboards the other the Sillette lifting and steerable leg drive single engine system. The single engine one has a more nookie friendly double berth on the upper bridgedecklevel rather than the end of hulls ones. Initially I leaned towards the twin engine version but then got to worry worting about having two saildrive seals needing routine replacement from time to time potentially expensively. The liftable/steerable legs seem to come with a different worry as they seem to have other failure/maintenance issues to address.

So my questions at long last are:-
1)Am I worrying unduly about replacing saildrive through-hull seals?(as in the cost of having somebody paid to do them)
2) how maneuverable are the single steerable drive engine version cats?

3) Are both versions equally easy/safe to dry out on a hard beach?
4) Does the liftable leg significantly aid speed under sail when lifted? Do folks always lift them or only do so if on long sailing legs with no likely need to motor sail?

I have sailed most monohulls at some stage of my sailing life but never a cruising cat so please excuse my total numptiness!

PS I Know there are more modern cats than Snowgeese but money, location and other factors will probably prevail cometh the day..

.
 
I don't know either system so no help but if the lifting steerable leg has Enough power then you will soon get used to manouvering it and 360 on the spot will be possible with practice.
We have a 20 hp outboard and do lift the leg at sea speed gain is a 1/2 to 1 knot depending on the conditions. The outboard connects to the rudder's for close quarter manouvering but
disconnects and locks at sea which lightens helm and reduces fuel at sea.
 
Are you going to be into serious passage making where the inboards may provide additional reliability, dependability and charging capability, or are most of your movements likely to be local jaunts where maybe the engine isn't so critical?
 
Triassic said:
Are you going to be into serious passage making where the inboards may provide additional reliability, dependability and charging capability, or are most of your movements likely to be local jaunts where maybe the engine isn't so critical?
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Depends! NOt talking outboards BTW but inboard with lifting and steerable outdrive leg ( Sillette Sonic drive)
Based southern UK, cruising Channel and Western ( Atlantic ) France maybe to N Spain, living on board full time, maybe drying out for scrub offs/bottom jobs etc and being mobile not classed as permanent gypsy liveaboards if we get an annual marina berth or winter one.
 
The Sonic drive is an ancient piece of kit but was the arguably best solution before the advent and acceptance of saildrives. Twin saildrives only really became popular when hulls were redesigned to have fuller sections after to both make space for them and cope with the weight.

Think you will find that saildrive hulls have skegs underneath the drive to protect them when drying out. Would not worry overmuch about replacing membranes as they have proved very reliable and long lasting. If they are Volvo the bits cost just over £300 and average 1-2 days labour. Professional replacement around £1000-1200 a side.

The advantage of Sonic at the time (apart from the fact there was no sensible alternative if you wanted a diesel) was it occupied dead space under the bridge deck and in the cockpit, could be lifted out of the water and steered. Downsides often noisy and the diesels fitted would now be considered antiquated.

BTW have you looked at Catalacs. Bit staid but robust and good accommodation. Built by local lads in Christchurch as a bonus!
 
We cruised a Prout Snowgoose with single leg across the Atlantic and back. We owned that boat for 12 years. With pracrise the single leg is very manoeuvrable. Far easier to enter a marina in strong winds than most monos.( i say this as a current monohull owner). Lifting the leg when sailing saves huge drag. It transforms the sailing. In my opinion it is a far better set up for the Prout than twin engines. I believe the twin engines is more akin to a motor sailer than a sailing boat. The single engine Prout kept light will sail well in a blow. We had a super tall rig at 45 ft and trick sails. She really did perform well. Most dont due to weight. Twin engines is a killer to performance. Keep her light and enjoy the sail. Fill her with heavy gear and you sail a pig. Its your choice
 
I am reassured somewhat by geem's reply, for which thank you. Yes Tranona a 10M catalac might be another option t consider too. it is all academic until we have sold up and 'have money can travel' but we need to have our thoughts well organised before we get on the plane at least to have a shortish short list. Having had a year on a big twin engined trawler the maneuverability of twins in a mobo is understood ( even though not as easy as might first seem to yotties) the single engine but steerable drive is a complete mysatery to me and I cannot quite picture the berthing tactics in a tight marina situation. THE drive unit being stern mounted and not through hull seems less of a potential leak problem although there are lots of you tuband internet discussions suggesting that the sonic drive legs need careful maintenance and have their own problems verrsus the mono style saildrives that have seals needing regular inspection/replacement (2 yrs for yanmar, 7 years for Volvo IIRC) We will be on a tight budget and twin engines to service is one thing but two engines plus two thru-hull sail drives is another again. I'm not agile nor skinny enough to crawl into small engine spaces and DIY like I used to and paying Joe a huge hourly rate could end up very costly even if timed with a routine lift out for antifoul. Most probably we would insist on new seals on purchase or have them done as we would have a full overhaul of a drive leg set up too, but it is the ongoing thereafter that has to be factored in.. WE still look at potential mobos, again twin engines but at least conventional drive systems, albeit with potentially big fuel bills and higher service costs. SWMBO too likes the idea still of having sails as the ultimate backup whereas I still tend to see things the other way round with sails as primary and motor(s) as the backup.

I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure!:ambivalence: A lottery win would solve many problems!
 
Although Volvo say 7 years ther are many examples of people going at least twice that long before changing the saildrive seals. I have just changed ours after 13years and the old ones looked like they could have done another 13!! I have never seen a report of a saildrive seal failing simply from age or perishing - physical abuse is a different matter and that can cause even a new seal to fail. In short if you change the seals when you buy the boat you should not have any worries for a good long time.
As for the Sonic leg option, most people get on well with them after a bit of practice, however they do require good quality regular maintenance otherwise they will start to seize up and corrode etc. But because of the mounting position they are very easy to work on and most competent owners do their own maintenance without any problems. One owner I spoke to said that Silette are very good with any technical assistance and parts even for very old drive leg models.
The comments from Geem about the weight and performance of twin engine models are spot on so if you can find a good Snowgoose with a drive leg and engine in good condition then it is probably the best choice.
 
Twin engines may slightly improve your odds of having one continue to work all of the way to your berth, but they definitely do double the risk of a breakdown.

Double alternators, so another battery ideally.
Likely to be heavier.
Plus double servicing costs, anodes, propeller maintenance etc.
Can run one alone.
Two fixed props in the water generating drag or two expensive folding ones.
Quieter - I understand the mid-mounted engines to be noisier?
Twin engines bound to use a bit more fuel than a single of the same power.

There is a good Catalac 10m for sale near me: http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/Catamaran/catalac-10m/163266 I'd buy her myself but she is out of my current price range. Looking at Catalac 9m as soon as (if) my Centaur sells and releases the mooring.
 
I'll throw in a few random points although I have no experience with cats with single drives.

Go for twin engines if you can afford it. It is bound to be better to manouvre. There is not double the risk of a breakdown causing you a problem but virtually no risk. We've had a fan belt fail but just used one engine and a rudder seize and just used one rudder (some monos can do that). On long passages with no wind you can just use one engine and save a lot of fuel. Unless you are in a rush you won't notice any difference in speed.

Sail drive gaiters etc are the same as monohulls and last a long time but, inevitably there are two to change so it's extra cost as will be just about everything associated with the engines although these costs are still a tiny part of the total cost of ownership.

We didn't buy our Leopard until they changed from Volvo to Yanmar, allegedly because of reliability issues with the Volvos reported by the major purchaser.

The keels will be deeper than the saildrives so props are well protected when beaching. Fit folding props if drag is a concern. Our rudders are aft of the props but not all cats are like that although I don't know how much that affects handling.

I would recommend a configuration with all sleeping berths in the hulls and the galley on the bridgedeck. With the cockpit also on the same level this gives a very family-friendly and hospitable feel with everyone together and able to chat together whilst cooking/drinking etc and no passing plates/food/drinks etc from one level to another.

My feeling is that the two big safety benefits are cats are two of everything mechanical so always a backup system and no lead to drag around so no sinking. ;)

If you go for one engine, then you miss out on 50% of the safety advantage. Yes, a cat is more expensive in almost every way than a monohull ..... but you knew that anyway.

Richard
 
I have two by Yanmar 3 GM 30's on saildrive.

In reverse I get a hell of a lot of prop walk almost so much that I have to put one engine ahead to counter it .
I can do spectac spin round on a sixpence. but rairly find it necessary.

One of the very noticeable aspects of a cat is that they are basically square. So you can't come alongside put the bow in close and round up so the crew can step ashore at the beam... when we pivot the bow goes away from the quay and the middle also stays a long way off! I put the bow (or stern in close and First Office loops a cleat then use engines to pull us in. I can ferry glide when the tide is in the right direction.

In a cross wind.. we are going sideways. That's it we go sideways and there is nothing we can do to change it. Big fenders are necessary.

I don't tink a single stillet on a steerable leg wlil be much different
 
Twin engines also allow you to steer the boat when the wheel comes off in your hand, just as you are entering a busy marina. :eek:
 
Tomahawk said:
I have two by Yanmar 3 GM 30's on saildrive.

In reverse I get a hell of a lot of prop walk almost so much that I have to put one engine ahead to counter it .
I can do spectac spin round on a sixpence. but rairly find it necessary.

One of the very noticeable aspects of a cat is that they are basically square. So you can't come alongside put the bow in close and round up so the crew can step ashore at the beam... when we pivot the bow goes away from the quay and the middle also stays a long way off! I put the bow (or stern in close and First Office loops a cleat then use engines to pull us in. I can ferry glide when the tide is in the right direction.

In a cross wind.. we are going sideways. That's it we go sideways and there is nothing we can do to change it. Big fenders are necessary.

I don't tink a single stillet on a steerable leg wlil be much different
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Thanks. I saw a U-tube video of a Prout cat in the Thames estuary sailing, it was called Tomahawk was that yours? Your crosswind parking description describes berthing our old trawler we lived on pretty well too and was ultimately why we downsized back to a 36ft mono that could be bullied better. In our case we reversed in, dropping a marked length spring loop over the finger end cleat as we went by ( from the safety of a small stern cockpit), then added a short stern breast line once in against which we could 'drive' ahead whilst we added other lines as needed starting with another stern Line to a piling between us and next door, usually left hanging on a reachable cleat on it That trawler had no keel and huge windage. Luckily there were usually two big mobos parked either side of our home berth that kept the crosswind off us once we got most of us in. between and lined up, didn't help when away from home though.
 
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Hi Robin, noticed this boat for sale in your neck of the woods. Seems to need a bit of work and don't have a clue what value these things fetch in either good or bad order so unsure whether it represents good value or not. Just posting the details in case its of interest. It does seem boats are generally cheaper in the States.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Prout-Snowg...ash=item3f76ef1efe:g:1eAAAOSwax5YrIi3&vxp=mtr
 
pragmatist said:
Only ONE picture ?!!!
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Yep, crazy! At least a good chance it will be still there when we get there, however long it takes. Sadly there are many ads like that often with very remotely located boats, like you willjust jump on a plane to bongo bongo just on the off chance it is worth a look. THen there are the ones that neglect to say they are not VAT paid, EU or UK. or that you have to book a viewing to coincide with the owner's vacation time.
 
pragmatist said:
Only ONE picture ?!!!
Click to expand...

And that picture (referring to the Catalac 10m mentioned above) is from at least a couple of years ago. It's been on the market for some time (two years or more), there were more pics when it was on with a broker and featured on Yachtworld.com From those pictures it frankly looked tired inside and engines and sail drives original from 1988, basic and old electronics/instruments. Certainly not a bargain at that price in my opinion.
 
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