A little knowledge is ...

peterb

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There's a thread further down the board, started last Friday (7th of June) with a contribution "Powerboaters too" by WayneS. It's one of the common power v sail rants, but it raises some other points too.

In one of the contributions a fly-bridge powerboat comes out of a marina and makes a Topper dinghy give way. After some conversational interchange it transpires that the powerboat is operating on one engine and has difficulty in manoeuvring. Another contribution suggests that she should have been showing the signal for "restricted in ability to manoeuvre", ball-diamond-ball. Another points out that there is no sound signal to show the difficulty in manoeuvre.

Now under Colregs the definition of "restricted in ability to manoeuvre" is of a vessel which is restricted due to the nature of her work; dredgers, survey vessels, etc. The case being talked of here is not restricted in ability to manoeuvre, it is "not under command"; a vessel which "through some exceptional circumstance is unable to manoeuvre as required by the Rules". The correct signal would have been two balls (no diamond).

There is a sound signal to show that a vessel has difficulty in manoeuvring. It's in Colregs as the fog signal for almost anything except a normal power vessel: one long blast followed by two short. The signal comes from the International Code of Signals; it is Morse letter D (Delta), and means "Keep clear of me; I am manoeuvring with difficulty".

But the problem for small boat sailors is that most small boat sailors (whether rag and stick or smelly back-ender) just don't know these rules. Although the previous thread went on to over thirty contributions, no-one picked up the errors. So suppose that the power boat had shown two black balls, had flown flag Delta and sounded long-short-short, what would the probability be that a Topper dinghy's occupant(s) would have understood? Yes, the Rules are there; but what proportion of sailors know them? And is there any way by which we can improve our education?

The RYA Yachtmaster syllabus used to include the single-letter signals; it doesn't any more. And a little while ago I set a Colregs quiz which included a question on the difference between "not under command" and "restricted in ability to manoeuvre"; only one Yachtmaster out of fifteen I asked knew the answer. Worse, well under half failed to recognise the pattern of lights indicating that one was trying to pass between a tug and a tow!

What should we do?
 
G

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Education Education Education

I think to be fair Peter most of us would struggle to know even if vessels displayed the correct marks. I do keep a book close to hand of signals and lights but I would guess most of us 'sense' when something is not quite right. As a society we are seem to be failing in most areas of education.

As an aside, I have always felt that yachts and boats should display on their bow somewhere what their draught is. I think dinghys particularly do not appreciate this when we fail to give way in narrow channels.
 
G

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Sorry Nick !

I was just waiting for someone to spot my deliberate mistake !

Also before anyone else notices it - I must of had booze on the mind - please insert draft in place of the other one !
 

Gunfleet

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You don't think coming out of a marina unable to control the vessel properly is a mistake, a priori? I don't think the insurers would be too impressed.
 

tcm

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Re: what to do

Er, for a start i supose we could read and digest all peterb's previous posts! Long and two shorts , i will remember. Unfortunetely i reckon that the vast majority of all pleasure boats would be unable to lay their hands on more than one black ball (me included) .
 

escape

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Re: is ...a complete balls up

or at least it should be 3 balls up if i remember my colregs.
problem is you see that besides being yatchs people most of us have livings to earn.this means us sad b*****ds don't no the regs backwards but rely on common sense and what our weak little brains retain from our yatchmaster (ocean).
still must be nice sitting there with the knoewledge you know it all
 

Jeremy_W

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Re: Sorry Nick !

It reads perfectly clearly with the original spelling. Given the speed of racing sailors heading for a refreshing pint and the slowness of yacht club barmen it's an intersting idea.
 

halcyon

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One point missing from the post is that it only applies to vessels above 12 meters.

Gone through my RYA International col regs (annotated for yachtsmen ) and still cannot see your definitions, 2 balls and a diamond are only listed for any vessel resttricted in there ability to manoeuvre. As it has been pointed the motorboat could manoeuvre, but only with difficulty.

The point as I understand it is not them leaving the marina, it,s how they left the marina. Last year when me launched my mates Sealine 195 the engine would not start ( cam belt jumped on rusty crankpully ), to get it to the pontoon we had to use the outboard on oneside of the swindeck. This ment that we could make progress in a fashion, with we in the cockpit shouting directions, my mate sitting on the swin deck turning the outboard as required. A freind got his yachts tender and went ahead warning everyone and checking the way was clear, result we made safe arrival.

In the case of the marina why not get someone to check entrance before leaving, so the Topper was clear before there depature. In the case of the chap leaving Falmouth, if he had had the marina launch follow him clear of the outer harbour, say to Governer, there are no mooring and a clear run to Blackrock ( or better still Blackrock ) and open sea.

You may be stressed driving a motorbaot with one engine, but the rest of us are not mindreaders.


Brian
 

Eudorajab

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Maybe slightly oversimplifying here but why cant a powerboat maneouver perfectly well with just one engine ? Us raggies have to do it all the time and it would seem to me that given the correct level of competence any powerboat should be able to operate satisfactorily using just the one motor. If not, maybe they should learn how to do so, in much the same way that us raggies should know how to sail onto a mooring instead of calling occupying valuable resource due to engine failure (or hailing the nearest passing stinky).
 

tcm

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Re: 2-engine powerboat on 1 engine

This is extraordinarily difficult, tho sounds easy. If the boat is designed with one engine (like sail and some power) then OK. But with one engine, going ahead requires steering against the engine etc etc. and not the sort of thing that one gets lots of practise with. You'd also need to learn for both engines. Yes, a pro skipper must know this, but for weekends boaters I think a full crew and some days of poss expensive pontoon bashing needed. My self i'd get the boat fixed first, then move it.

From memory the post say that the stinkie crew sed "we've only got one engine" - but does that mean another inoperable or they only had one anyway? Other issue is the sailing dinghy on LHS of channel and "helmed by 13 year-old", meaning sailboat also claiming special treament it seems. Both vessels assumed/hoped other was fully able to compensate for their own deficiencies.
 

claymore

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Very Interesting

as all the responses are Colregs,black balls, diamonds, triangles or whatever flying from wherever - surely only a complete prat stands on regardless - the minute I see a situation developing in crowded or uncrowded waters - I'm thinging avoidance strategies. The best way of getting out of trouble is not to get into it in the first place. Does going round the back of someone or tacking off for a while really make such a big difference to our day? I don't think so.

regards
Claymore
 

incognito

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Halcyon: How can you post like this? If you contradict someone, you should check your sources. PeterB has put the case quite accurately, even if rather pedantically. (12m refers to lights, not shapes).

Peter: although NUC is the correct signal, RAM technically incorrect would be more likely to be recognised. What to do? Always proceed with caution, and, if in that NUC situation, put someone with a loudhailer up forrard and be prepared to put what power you have in reverse/off.

Never forget the great catch-all...

"In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the LIMITATIONS OF THE VESSELS INVOLVED, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger" - in other words, be prepared to take avoiding action before it is too late to do so, and fly the wrong shape if that would avoid immediate danger.
 

halcyon

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Rule 27 Vessels not under command or restricted in their ability to manoeuver

Para (g)

Vessels of less than 12 meters in length, except those engaged in diving operations, shall not be required to exhibit the lights and shapes prescribed in this Rule.


If you read my post I said having gine through my books there is no mention of his definition, were was his definitions to be found.


Goodnight.


Brian
 

andrewg

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Speaking as a dinghy sailor racing in Chichester harbour, I just wish big power boats would keep going slowly in a straight line. Given the narrowness of the channel they can't do much else. The worst thing they can do is to slam on full reverse when we are looking to duck their stern.
 

hlb

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The problem is simple. When an auto pilot is fitted. Stearing is reduced to 30 degrees. Well on mine anyway. This is no problem when running normaly. As if more turning is required. Just forget the wheel and use engines, then turn in own space. However with only one engine. And dont forget that the rudder is only about 3-4 inch wide. With full lock it might or might not turn at all to the side at which the engine is running. Now if your clever you can drop a trim tab on the side where the engine is running which will help to give more steering. This is fine out to sea. But when power is reduced the boat slews round uncontrolably. So it's catch 22. Also less than about 8 knots power boats do not react to the wheel very much. Does not matter who's driving it.

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