A Bilge Pump Question?

[Medskipper]

Decided to upgrade my bilge pump as I felt it was not powerful enough and the old one is very tired!

I looked at several and then spotted a "Rule 4000" in a chandlers, R.R.P. was £215. I think it has been on the shelf a year or maybe longer and because they had lost the box and instructions they made me an offer I couldn't refuse!.

I installed it today in the bilges of my boat and wired it up. Now electric bilge pumps I have had in the past have all just had a float switch in them and when water level rises the switch is activated and pumps starts to go. This "Rule 4000" is all singing all dancing, its computerised and has integral float switch and is fully submersible. After having connected it to my 12v direct to the battery so that it will be live even when the 12v master switch is off the motor started to run for a second or two even though the bilge is dry! it then stopped but after about 5 minutes it started and then stopped again! It has been doing this now for a few hours! it only activates for a second and then stops. I decided to put it in a large bucket of water and nothing happened until five minutes had passed and then off it went, but this time it did not stop until the bucket was empty. It then resumes to activating for a second every five minutes! its like a self test!

Does anyone have a large electric bilge pump that works likes this? or is this pump faulty? anyone had any experiences like this with their bilge pumps? Anyone got a "Rule 4000"? Its made in U.S.A. And there are two wires one white the other brown, I have assumed that the brown is live and white negative am I wrong? the pump certainly pumped in the correct direction!


Barry


<hr width=100% size=1>I just want to retire with my boat to the Med!

 

[Ships_Cat]

The 4000, and others in the same range do not use a float switch in them. They turn on every few munutes and sense if there is any load on the impellor - turn off if there is not, stay running until the load goes away if there is.

Personally am not sure they are a good buy, but have never had to choose them as in most places they are not legal on commercial vessels (they pump any oily bilge water over the side, so electric bilge pumps have to be float switched to an alarm and then the crew turn the pump on, and they cannot then also operate and pump contaminated water over the side when the vessel is unattended).

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.

 

[alanporter]

In the West Marine catalogue it states that these pumps cycle on every 2.5 minutes and then quickly shut down if no water is detected. It also states that there are three wires, one for for connecting to a manual override switch or to an indicator light. The stated price is 220 US dollars, which is about 135 to 140 GB pounds.

<hr width=100% size=1>Alan Porter

 

[Medskipper]

Ok thanks for that, the pump is doing what its supposed to then! they had it marked up at £215. but I got it for £100. so I don't think I did too badly! I think that ordering from U.S.A. via the net always seems to be cheaper somehow, but I don't know if import taxes/duties/VAT etc, have to be paid on top of the price?

There is only two wires on this pump, a brown and a white, so I'm not quite sure why I don't have a third wire! I don't really like the fact that this pump will cycle on and off every few minutes all day and all night long year in year out, so I think I will wire it through a separate float switch so it only has power when there really is water in the bilge! What does the panel think about that?

Barry


<hr width=100% size=1>I just want to retire with my boat to the Med!

 

[Its_Only_Money]

So its a self-contained, self-activating battery-flattener then that happens to also empty the bilge as a side-effect? /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif

Suitable only for boats left on shore-power as presumably in would continue to flatten the battery if the boat is hauled-out????

<hr width=100% size=1>Rgds

Simon
Its Only Money
Fairline Sprint
Solent-based

 

[longjohnsilver]

Hmm, wot happens if you have a hole which is gushing in water, presumably it will take mebbe 2 or 3 minutes for this pump to start, not ideal surely?

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[Its_Only_Money]

"it will take mebbe 2 or 3 minutes for this pump to start"

If it hasn't flattened the battery first?

As it a) pumps when there is no water and b) doesn't pump when there is (or not straight away), how did the concept get into production I wonder?

Are normal float switches SO unreliable that you have to introduce two big potential problems to avoid the float switch "problems"????

<hr width=100% size=1>Rgds

Simon
Its Only Money
Fairline Sprint
Solent-based

 

[itsonlymoney]

I'm with Simon on this. Can't really see the point, what on earth is wrong with the tried and tested float switch method. I assume there is a logical explanation for this design ?
Ian

<hr width=100% size=1>Play the best game you can with the cards you've been dealt ! ! !

 

[Medskipper]

It is a bit strange isn't it? But it does pump four thousand gals an hour,(2" outlet) so even if it does take 3 or 4 mins to activate it will soon empty the boat, unless of course you have just hit massive rock!

I think to avoid any battery problems I will run the live through a float switch positioned lower than the pump, the pump will be activated and the computer wizardary can sort itself out and start to pump when/if the water level rises enough (pump base is so wide I cannot get it right down on the floor,its about 6" above the floor of keel) so float switch can sit on bottom of bilge, pump will be six inches higher.

Barry

<hr width=100% size=1>I just want to retire with my boat to the Med!

 

[mjf]

I have a chum who has a solid state thingy - last winter hes out on the hard and the security man hears an alarm. I am on site on the water enjoying the peace...when I get the call.

Long story short.....the solid state bit was sitting all winter in a little water that the pump would not shift - remember she's out of the water and trimmed more than usual. Shore power on for batteries and de humdifier etc.

Upshot was I could not get the bilge pump to stop without disconnecting the batteries as the thingy had shorted sitting in the water. Finally got to the bilge pump after first removing the bloody contents of the Laz - you know all the F/B cushions rope fenders and a stock of stuff that would not shame a marina chandlers - and removed the pump armature.


I would not touch one with a B.Pole.




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[Medskipper]

Well I think you might find that if your boat sinks from something like a skin fitting breaking out, corroding or electrolosis action, your insurance company might not pay out as you have not taken every precaution possible to prevent your pride and joy playing submarines!

Barry



<hr width=100% size=1>I just want to retire with my boat to the Med!

 

[BrendanS]

mjf stated that a boat out of water (on the hard) had a problem with a solid state pump, and that because of that experience, he would not use a pump of this sort.

Why does this invalidate any insurance??

<hr width=100% size=1>Me transmitte sursum, caledoni

 

[boatone]

I think mjf simply means that he wouldnt touch one like you got /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

I saw one of these for sale a few weeks ago on the bargains shelf at Nauticalia at Shepperton and decided it was not for me because of the 'always working' cycle every couple of minutes or so. I dont like leaving shore power permanently on so the idea of the bilge pump using current just to check if there was water present seemed OTT compared with a float switch making contact when there actually IS water present.

(wasnt that one you bought was it?)

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.boatsontheweb.com/> Website, Photo Gallery, Chat Room, Burgees</A>

 

[Dipper]

There are two versions of this pump. One has the third manual over-ride wire and one doesn’t. You have the ‘doesn’t’ version!

The main (perhaps only) benefit of these pumps is that there is no float switch to jam. However, as you have discovered, they are not ideal for leaving switched on whilst the boat is not in use or if you are under sail although the current drain in sensing mode is relatively small. Where they are useful, is on a vessel which is under power and the battery(ies) are being charged. I have a smaller version of this pump which I switch on in rough conditions as a precaution.

If you have a large pump with a float switch and you get a big leak whilst you are not on board, you are going to flatten your battery in a short time anyway. It might be worth considering keeping the auto pump with a separate switch for use when under way or in emergencies and install a much smaller (and less power hungry) pump with a float switch for day to day monitoring/pumping.


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[Medskipper]

Yep, thats the one! they had it knocked down to £150. and I offered £100 and they said O.K. I think its been on their shelf for a year or more!

But All I have to do is wire it through a float switch and it should be OK!

Barry

p.s. Is your boat in Shepperton then? and do you wear the cap when shopping? lol.

Barry




<hr width=100% size=1>I just want to retire with my boat to the Med!

 

[boatone]

They didnt ahve any instructions or other info when I asked so only sussed out how it worked later.

Keep my boat a bit further upriver at Chertsey......where are you then?
Now Im a stinkie I dont wear the cap much,....that was taken in my raggie days helming a Hurley 22. /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.boatsontheweb.com/> Website, Photo Gallery, Chat Room, Burgees</A>

 

[Medskipper]

I'm sure I read it in the small print once when I had nothing better to do a few years ago, I think it said something about doing everything possible to stop the ingress of water. Can't remember exactely, but I cannot believe that an insurance company would not try and riggle out of it a bit if they discovered that no bilge pump was present! You know what insurers are like! Anyway better to be safe than sorry, don't you think?

Barry


<hr width=100% size=1>I just want to retire with my boat to the Med!

 

[Medskipper]

I keep mine at Chatham, but I live in Epsom so Shepperton is not far to go, I don't shop there as much as when it was MMS though, I think its gone down hill a bit!

Barry

<hr width=100% size=1>I just want to retire with my boat to the Med!

 

[BrendanS]

On the hard, out of the water? I think the insurance company would struggle to get out of that one no matter what their small print

<hr width=100% size=1>Me transmitte sursum, caledoni

 

[Ships_Cat]

<<<But it does pump four thousand gals an hour>>>

Not contradicting you cos alot is a lot, but reminded me that perhaps worth knowing to some that Rule pumps (and similar others) never seem to pump nearly as much as the makers' claim, even after taking head, etc losses into account.

While I recall a magazine article some years ago pointing this out with some tests, we actually tested some bigger Rule pumps a few months ago going into some new boats and again found it to be so - they were all well down on the maker's claims (good pumps though).

John

<hr width=100% size=1>I am the cat but I am only 6.