9th oldest boat in the world?

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amadeus

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When I was in New Zealand at Easter I visited Picton where the Edwin Fox, an 1853 East Indiaman is exhibited with a remarkable list of immigrants carried to the new world in the 19th century. Part of the blurb claims she is the 9th oldest ship in the world which is clearly nonsense. Can anyone produce a rough list of the oldest boats? I thought of 14 eqyptian boats at Abydos, 4000BC then sutton Hoo longship, Orkney viking longship, 3 bronze age boats in yorkshire, Mary Rose, Victory, USS Constitution in Boston 1798. Then I ran out of ideas so over to the assembled experts. By the way the Edwin Fox is magnificent but greatly in need of support for restoration...

<hr width=100% size=1>Seagull
 
Off hand I can only add the "Vasa" in Stockholm to the list, but given its unfortunate history there may be some question as to whether it ever was a ship.

On the Edwin Fox - we have a characteristic out here of being blind to the good things in other parts of the world (I have even heard a person with a PhD, but not in history, say he thought that guitars were invented in NZ by the Maoris!) - hence the obvious error in the 9th oldest ship in world claim. They also claim it is the last East Indiaman left and I wonder if that is true?

As you say, the Edwin Fox needs a great deal of attention, but I would think it will be very slow due to lack of money and interest.

John

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Hmm ... If the "Edwin Fox" needs a bit of work to get her shipshape, where does that leave the "Mary Rose"? Last time I saw her she still had more than a few incomplete planks!
Does their list start to narrow if you exclude wrecks, or vessels not capable of floating, and define a ship to be a vessel that is ship-rigged? That would probably exclude all pre-mediaevel boats, dugouts, proas and papyrus rafts etc.
On that basis I'm afraid I can't add to it.


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Dave - "needs a bit of work to get her shipshape" is putting it lightly. No deck, topsides rotted out, etc, etc so I would think that if the trust owning it are counting Edwin Fox as one of the 9 then one must consider wrecks in the oldest ship count.

Pictures are on <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.nzmaritime.co.nz/edwinfox.htm>http://www.nzmaritime.co.nz/edwinfox.htm</A>, to see current state one has to scroll to bottom of a very long page with much updating time due to the pictures though. I would say that unless some benevolent zillionaire turns up, it will never be more than just slightly restored and maybe just protected to prevent further deterioration (which, to me would seem be a waste of time, given its condition, unless their claim as to it being the last East Indiaman is correct in which case it is of historic interest).

John

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I see what you mean. Quite an impressive written history, but not much ship is left at the end of it all. Even if she were restored, I'm reminded of Slocum's comment of "Spray" that the only thing worth preserving was her shape. There wouldn't be many original timbers left on the finished ship.

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Isnt that the point about boat restoration though? Even with the new timbers and spars and rigging if the original boat was used for the restoration she is still considered to be present maybe in spirit! I've just thought of all the looe luggers and the french fishing fleet so maybe thats another few dozen. Is there a definitive list anywhere of OLD BOATS of the World. I feel a slight obsession creeping over me...

<hr width=100% size=1>Seagull
 
I take your point, after all it is said of "Victory" that hardly an original plank was left in her by the time she retired from active service. Looking at the pictures of "Edwin Fox" there is precious little left of this ship, other than a hull. One of the historically important features of such a vessel is her masts and rigging. The other is her interior layout. One of the problems the restorers face is that there is no other comparable vessel to refer to. Many of the old photographs show her as she used to be, and if the keepers are sure they are replacing parts as they originally existed on that ship, then it would be valid historical restoration. Otherwise, if they have to make it up through lack of information, they are really building a replica on an old hull. This is also a worthy cause, as I don't think that should stop them doing it, but in my opinion she would then cease to be the ship that was built in 1853.

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Is there actually a requirement for this list that the boat will float?

Would Victory float? What about all those Viking ships to say nothing of Mary Rose, when is a boat still a boat?


<hr width=100% size=1>John
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.allgadgets.co.uk>http://www.allgadgets.co.uk</A>
 
<Would Victory float?>

No, because her (steel) masts go straight through her bottom and are cemented into the bottom of the dry dock! It was felt that the strain of having to support the mast would be too much for her hull.

Three years ago I did some surveying on the Victory - its done every six months to see if the hulls warping. I was luck enough to be given a tour by the bloke in charge of the restoration team, and got to see many parts of the Victory that aren't open to the public. One thing many people don't realise is that only traditional building techniques are used, and even the use of power tools is kept to a minimum.

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<<One thing many people don't realise is that only traditional building techniques are used, and even the use of power tools is kept to a minimum. >>
In fact they use the original adze the shipbuilder used. Of course it's had ten new heads and fifteen new handles... but it's still the original adze.

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My view would be as long as the boat has floated in the past it is still a boat. The Titanic for example, is still a boat despite being at the bottom of the Atlantic. (She's too recent for the list though) That qualifies all the wrecks though and I dont know how you decide if they are still there, so maybe the boat, which once floated, must now be above sea level to add to the list. Any more bids?

<hr width=100% size=1>Seagull
 
NOT the 9th oldest boat in the world :

"The ninth oldest ship AFLOAT in the world
the oldest wooden merchant ship afloat
the last surviving Crimea War troopship (1854)
The last surviving convict ship to Australia (1858)
The last surviving wooden immigrant ship to New Zealand (1873)"

(From their site)

John

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