50 years old boat Insurance - when's its birthday?

[Mctavish]

I will be required to have a survey when my 22 foot yacht is over 50 years old (built 1974) Can anyone with legal experience very kindly clarify the legal definition of 50 years of age for marine insurance contract purposes - is it from January 1, for example? I don't see any definition in the policy details. I would probably switch to third party instead of getting a survey, as it is a small boat of low value but I would like to keep it fully insured for as long as possible.

Thank you so much for any help.

 

[Porthandbuoy]

I don't know if there's a legal definition, but I used the date of first registration (Blue book) for Sheolin as her 'birthday'.

 

[Koeketiene]

I have the original owners invoice (to prove VAT paid status).
I use the invoice date as the boats birthday.

 

[Biggles Wader]

I would speak to the insurance company and ask them exactly what date they will require a survey.

 

[Minerva]

I would presume that a rational guess would be a survey before the start of her 50th years' sailing season.

Your insurance co will be better informed to tell you though

 

[Tranona]

No such thing as a legal definition of age, although for VAT rules covering home builds the start point is defined as date of first launch as a proxy for "placed on the market" or "put into use". Boats do not have a separate legal identity nor any compulsory registration as they are just "chattels". Unlike cars for example there is no clearly identifiable record such as date of manufacture or date of first registration.

So the insurer can define it however they want and because it is not critical would guess they would just use the declared year of build in relation to the renewal date. That is how Bishop Skinner defined it when my boat made it to 50 - "We will require a survey before renewal as your boat will be 50 years old." It was actually registered in December 1963, but this was for renewal in May 1963. However the boat was laid up at the time and the all risks continued and the survey was only required for cover in the water by which time I had sold it.

 

[oldharry]

I would shop around a bit more. Many Insurers will insure older low value boats without a survey, but usually subject to a set of photos inside and out as evidence the vessel is not derelict! Be careful thoigh, as the policy will contain a clause to the effect that the owner has 'taken all reasonable steps to ensure the vessel is seaworthy'. Fine if you know what you are doing, but otherwise define 'seaworthy'?! In other words, own risk if you fail to spot anything wrong.

My boat, a Trident 24 was launched 1972. I have never been asked for anything more than photographic evidence of condition.

 

[Mctavish]

Thank you so much for the responses. They were exactly what I was asking for.
I contacted my insurance company and they said the day of annual renewal of insurance is taken as the birthday in their case.
If I find her actual birthday in the paperwork I may celebrate it (in a small whiskey-based way) as it's not much weirder than celebrating my dog's.

 

[lustyd]

I have the original owners invoice (to prove VAT paid status).

Original invoice doesn't prove VAT status on its own, you'd need a bunch of bills of sale showing all transfers of ownership were private and that the boat hasn't been exported/imported etc.

 

[Koeketiene]

Original invoice doesn't prove VAT status on its own, you'd need a bunch of bills of sale showing all transfers of ownership were private and that the boat hasn't been exported/imported etc.

Well, if it was good enough for the douane, it's good enough for me.

 

[lustyd]

It might well have worked, but that’s not what I said. If you export your boat to/from Europe the VAT status will now change regardless of what paperwork you may have.

 

[Momac]

I have thought of the boats birthday as the date of the original bill of sale which is April in my case .

The last acceptable date required for insurance survey might be agreed with insurers but I would suggest it would be best to have the survey arranged and completed well in advance . So anytime this year would be good.

 

[Tranona]

I have thought of the boats birthday as the date of the original bill of sale which is April in my case .

The last acceptable date required for insurance survey might be agreed with insurers but I would suggest it would be best to have the survey arranged and completed well in advance . So anytime this year would be good.

Depends on why you want to know the "age". The first sale could be months or even years after the boat was built, or conversely as with many modern boats the first bill of sale could be to a dealer and the boat sit around for months waiting for a buyer. If the age is needed to determine what spec the boat has then it is the hull number that is important (just as in cars).

In essence there is no definitive start date for a boat's life, only a series of stages - build date (which in itself can be indeterminate) transfer to first owner, registration date, launch date. So up to the body that wants to know to determine which is appropriate for their needs and as insurance is usually on an annual basis, the 50th year renewal cut off only needs the year of build - as close as can be determined!

 

[V1701]

I don't know how old mine is - the hull was moulded in the late '70's, fitting out began in 2007, was finished in 2010, she was splashed for the very first time in 2011...

 

[Tranona]

Not unlike the abortion debate which in part revolves around "when does life begin"

From an RCD point of view (exemption from) your start date is 2011, now well outside the 6 year period when the exemption becomes absolute, assuming the builder/owner kept it until 2017.

Murky waters and best not to ask too many questions.

 

[Refueler]

I would shop around a bit more. Many Insurers will insure older low value boats without a survey, but usually subject to a set of photos inside and out as evidence the vessel is not derelict! Be careful thoigh, as the policy will contain a clause to the effect that the owner has 'taken all reasonable steps to ensure the vessel is seaworthy'. Fine if you know what you are doing, but otherwise define 'seaworthy'?! In other words, own risk if you fail to spot anything wrong.

My boat, a Trident 24 was launched 1972. I have never been asked for anything more than photographic evidence of condition.

Yep ... and some can accept a letter from Boat Yard ... basically saying that as far as they are aware - boat is maintained in seaworthy condition or words similar. (Most Yards require you to maintain and not allow boat to rot on site ... so in reality they are only confirming what they require of you !).

 

[oldharry]

Yes, you can ask your yard for a 'Boatbuilders Oipinion' check on your pride and joy: A boat builder will check over your boat, but without any dismantling for any faults they can see. Much cheaper than a full survey report, as it is simply an 'opinion' wth no comeback if he misses anything. But he will note any visible defects and recommendations much as surveyor will. This not only gives peace of mind at sea, but provides written evidence that you have taken steps to ensure your boat is seaworthy - assuming of course you follow through the points raised!

 

[Sandyshore]

Thought age was defined when keel layed or modern equivalent for GRP!

 

[V1701]

Not unlike the abortion debate which in part revolves around "when does life begin"

From an RCD point of view (exemption from) your start date is 2011, now well outside the 6 year period when the exemption becomes absolute, assuming the builder/owner kept it until 2017.

Murky waters and best not to ask too many questions.

Mum's the word then...