40-45 foot flybridge choice?

[Spyros]

A friend of mine is looking to buy a 40-45 foot fly and has come up with the following models in his place that are for sale.

Cranchi 40 (cheapest)
Cranchi 43 (more expensive as is newer)
Cranchi 48 (a bit bigger)
Azimut 42
Princess 45
Princess 42 (1400 hours)
Beneteau Antares 12

His priority is sea handling in bad conditions.

 

[MapisM]

With that priority in mind, I'm not sure he should consider ANY planing boat, actually…
Otoh, I guess that your friend means that he wants a P boat anyway, with as much sea handling in bad conditions as she can offer.
And if so, frankly there's plenty of boats I would consider before even thinking to those in your list.

In no particular order:
- Uniesse 42/44
- Cayman 42
- DC 12
- Ferretti 39/43
- VZ 45
- Raffaelli Storm/Levante
- DP 43
- Carnevali 130
- Mochi 44
...and I'm sure I'm forgetting others!

Mind, I restricted the list to flybridges considering your list, but for seakeeping alone, there are some open boats which are even better than any of the above.

 

[Spyros]

It is not a priority list His target is up to 200.000€ max.
From the boats you mentioned not one is available here apart from the Ferretti 43.
Mochi 44 a beautiful boat but too expensive.
Uniesse you can find only open 42 and 48.
Cayman 42 fly looks nice but must be imported. And who will buy it afterwards?
Regarding the Ferretti 43, there is one here with 1000 hours and he has already considered it, but told me that had read in an old test that it rides with bow UP. ?? Any experience or opinions on this?
Also we must consider resale value and the brands I mentioned are more easily sell-able in Greece I think, so considering these what would you comment?

With that priority in mind, I'm not sure he should consider ANY planing boat, actually…
Otoh, I guess that your friend means that he wants a P boat anyway, with as much sea handling in bad conditions as she can offer.
And if so, frankly there's plenty of boats I would consider before even thinking to those in your list.

In no particular order:
- Uniesse 42/44
- Cayman 42
- DC 12
- Ferretti 39/43
- VZ 45
- Raffaelli Storm/Levante
- DP 43
- Carnevali 130
- Mochi 44
...and I'm sure I'm forgetting others!

Mind, I restricted the list to flybridges considering your list, but for seakeeping alone, there are some open boats which are even better than any of the above.

 

[MapisM]

Also we must consider resale value and the brands I mentioned are more easily sell-able in Greece I think, so considering these what would you comment?

Well, I only based my previous post on the two requirement you mentioned, i.e. size range and "sea handling in bad conditions".
Not a clue about resaleability in Greece, sorry.
Anyhow, just for the records, Uniesse did build 42 and 44 flybridges, hence the inclusion in my previous list. :encouragement:

 

[Spyros]

Maybe not very clear, I meant you can find in Greece only the open versions :encouragement:

Any opinions on the above? About the Ferretti?

 

[MapisM]

Fwiw, I never heard anyone complaining about a bow high attitude in the F43, though afaik most Ferrettis do need a bit of flaps, at cruising speed.

 

[Whitelighter]

Fwiw, I never heard anyone complaining about a bow high attitude in the F43, though afaik most Ferrettis do need a bit of flaps, at cruising speed.

I find a bit of flap does F*** all

Though in all other aspects I will vouch for the Ferretti - build quality is way above lots of other production boats of similar vintage.

That said, Azimut 46 should also make the list, at €200k you should find one

The 'cope with rough sea' is a bit bull turd, most FB boats around that size cope the same. There is no magic bullet, and non are remarkably poor.
Most (if not all in that price range) will have shaft drive and be heavy. Not much else to affect it unless you have super flat profile at the stern which few do

 

[Portofino]

Ask this “ friend “ to try a Itama 45 /46/42
3 cabins , just to get a baseline on seakerping .
Then some FB on your list .
But as Jez infers the FB , s chug about barely over 20 knots and soon drop off to D speeds if it gets hairy.
Itama run about @ 30 knots and drop to mid low 20 , s in the same seas the FB are forced to D speed
D speed is not really in the Itama vocabulary .
So inverting all that in a normal sea it’s a smooth uneventful ride .

Is this smooth ride worth the none FB perceived or real benefits - well that’s depends on how high up seakeeping is on the compromise list . All boats are compromised
You play off floating apartment against performance/ seakeeping . All depends how you intended to use your boat and of course keeping the wife onside helps .

If you can try before but I would esp if seakeeping heads up the wish list .

 

[MapisM]

I find a bit of flap does F*** all

As I understood, that's a bit of an exception typical of those years, when as you know the last section of the hull under the swim platform was separately attached, to avoid including it in the "official" boat LOA.
To do that, they also had to keep the props and rudders into the "main" hull, hence in an unusually forward position, which had the side effect of having the whole stern section working as a sort of huge flap (even if of course fixed), making the boat much less reactive to the "real" flaps.
That's not only true of your boat btw, but also of the 165 and 175.
Maybe markc can confirm is also his boat is not very sensible to the flap position...

The 'cope with rough sea' is a bit bull turd, most FB boats around that size cope the same. There is no magic bullet, and non are remarkably poor.
Most (if not all in that price range) will have shaft drive and be heavy. Not much else to affect it unless you have super flat profile at the stern which few do

While I agree that for the typical usage in fair weather anything goes (otherwise I would have kept my previous D boat, to start with...), trust me, there are things afloat that are remarkably poor indeed.
I seatrialed an Aicon 56 and my DP in very similar conditions, and saying that they are like chalk and cheese is an understatement. :ambivalence:

 

[Hardmy]

I seatrialed an Aicon 56 and my DP in very similar conditions, and saying that they are like chalk and cheese is an understatement. :ambivalence:

This is a very valuable first hand info from an esteemed forumite! May I ask what type of experiences did you gather during sea trials with other flybridge boats in the 50-70' segment? Or how does the DP handle better than e.g. the Aicon?

 

[markc]

That's not only true of your boat btw, but also of the 165 and 175.
Maybe markc can confirm is also his boat is not very sensible to the flap position...

I would love to confirm or deny, but my flaps have been stuck in the mid position since I bought the boat - they're on the list to sort out this spring. However, in this position I haven't felt the need for more or less tab, so maybe I should just leave them!

 

[MapisM]

May I ask what type of experiences did you gather during sea trials with other flybridge boats in the 50-70' segment?
Or how does the DP handle better than e.g. the Aicon?

'Course you can ask, as long as you don't expect much more than gut feelings!
Btw, I didn't stretch my search up to 70 feet. Actually, I did see a very few boats around that size, because they were somewhat attractive in more ways than one, asking price included.
But eventually, a glimpse of reason prevailed, and I never reached the seatrial stage with those.
Besides, also among the (many!) boats in the mid 50' ballpark, which is the size that eventually myself and swmbo decided to focus on, we only tried a few, whenever the owners offered to go out for a spin even without any advance commitment.
Long story short, we tried a couple of Ferrettis (53 and 57), an Azi 55, a VZ 16, a Riva 54, a Uniesse 55, a Tecnomarine 58 and a Technema 55.
And somewhat separately, also a Trader 575 and a Tecnomarine 62.
Sticking to the more comparable mid 50 footers, the main differences I noticed (contrarily to what is often mentioned ref. how much the hull slams, which imho is a red herring: those who want a boat that doesn't slam should rather not look at any P boat - it's that simple) are related to the hull attitude and stability, both at cruising speed and while steering, and also in the transition from D to P speed.
From these viewpoints, the Aicon is by far the boat which stood out from the rest for her POOR stability, slightly listing either on one or the other side even while cruising in a straight line and in pretty calm seas (!).
I must say that I wasn't impressed also by the Azi, though she was much better balanced than the Aicon anyway.
The boats which felt more solid and well balanced were the Uniesse, the DP and the T58, with the Ferretti 57 pretty close.
I'm leaving aside the Trader because obviously not comparable, and also the T62, which even if not much bigger is in a different league.
In fact, she's probably the P boat more akin to a freight train which I ever had the opportunity to try - including a couple of 80 footers, go figure!
I was so impressed by her rock solid attitude, that if I would have stretched my choice to that size, I would have been in doubt between her and the SL62, which is actually superior in most other respects.

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

In the original list I would go Azimut 42 and Princess 42 and 45. The Pr 42 is a bit more balanced to the old 45.
Build quality (fiberglass mostly) is a bit better in Princess, same in the other areas. The Azimut 42 gives the best liter per mile in class thanks to it not so wide beam and Cats 390hp.
But is no slouch weighing at 13 tons.
The Cranchi 40 is an okay flybridge boat, does everything good but nothing great. The 43 is an IPS, but that is a good hull, and will give even better LPH to the Azimut.
The 48 Atlantique is good but are a bit on the under power side, with the tamd74 or 75 Volvo 480hp. Loaded in the Med in the Summer they will tend to do about 27 knots WoT and cruise at about 21 knots.

Mapis suggestions are all good, but some of them take you to the 90s. I think when he suggested the Mochi 44, he meant the old Caliari design, not the Dolphin Zuccon Acampora designed lobster boat series.
In his range I would take the Cayman 42 (produced from 1999 till 2009) as the top of the list followed by the Uniesse (who go second only cause they are older).
They sell similar in price to an Azimut 42 in Italy, but build quality is much better in the Cayman as they are a very solid build, and I can vouch for that having cruised on both the 58 and 43 models in the past.
Uniesse flybridges are selling rather competitive although you need to look at 90s boat.

As for slamming goes I tend to not agree completely with Mapis. With the sense I like to compare like with like and how much a boat can take the sea without actually slamming.

 

[MapisM]

I think when he suggested the Mochi 44, he meant the old Caliari design, not the Dolphin Zuccon Acampora designed lobster boat series.

Precisely. The latter ain't a flybridge btw, which I suppose is what Spyros' friend is interested in.

Interesting to hear that you rate the Azi 42.
I only tried an old 37 many years ago, and a 55 more recently, and I must say that neither impressed me.
Otoh, they sold like hot cakes, so maybe I'm missing something.

Ref. slamming, don't get me wrong: of course I have a preference between a Magnum Bestia and a Beneteau, if I should make a crossing in a F6!
My point is, I'd rather not go out for pleasure in a F6 with a P boat anyhow, if given the choice.
And in "normal" sea conditions, imho it's much more the stability/tracking/attitude that discriminates between P boats, rather than slamming, deadrise, etc.
Though I suppose that the outstanding T62 behaviour which I previously mentioned would also be reflected in a better handling of rough stuff.
It would have been interesting to try her in more challenging conditions!

 

[Hardmy]

Guys, thanks for those very interesting opinions!

I've got a faible for those nineties italian flybridge boats, like Bart's Canados. I remember however, that it's important for example to look at the all fiberglass ones. I'd also try to avoid 2-stroke DDs.

You mention the SL62'. I think, I prefer its predecessor the SL57' because it hasn't stairs in the middle of the helmstation. But I never had a ride on any of them. Anyway, it wouldn't make sense to swap my current 3-cabins boat which I know by heart with another with the same amount of cabins and start from 0 again. Since we've got always enough friends who love to come along, we'd need a 4th cabin. This is SL72' territory already and it would be properly foolish to maintain a boat of this size.

And what says the panel about the nautical capabilities of a Rizzardi 50' from the nineties? I visited one a couple of years ago which needed some tlc. The small pantry and the flawed exhaust design excepted, I quite liked the boat.

 

[MapisM]

You mention the SL62'. I think, I prefer its predecessor the SL57' because it hasn't stairs in the middle of the helmstation. But I never had a ride on any of them.

I saw both the 57 and the 62, and while I agree that also the 57 is a great boat very well built, I actually prefer the internal stair of the 62 - but each to their own.
And FYI, even if I tried neither, I have it on very good authority that the 62 is MUCH better balanced.
The 57 struggled a bit to get on the plane when loaded, and also at cruising speed, she kept a rather uncomfortable bow high attitude.
And most 57 were built with DD engines, btw.
Anyhow, yep, both have "only" 3 cabins. Beautiful ones at that, but 3 they are - unless you consider also the (actually decent) crew quarters.

PS: no experience with the Rizzardi 50'. What's wrong with her exhaust design?

 

[MapisM]

I remember however, that it's important for example to look at the all fiberglass ones. I'd also try to avoid 2-stroke DDs.

You might wish to have a look at the Canados 58.
Obviously smaller than Bart's 70s, but still a pretty large boat, all GRP, and built (IIRC) only with MAN engines.

 

[Hardmy]

Thanks, Mapis. I guess with the 57' that there is also a difference in the riding attitude if DDs or MANs are fitted (must be quite some weight difference). I also came accross a SL57' with CATs fitted afterwards.

In the Rizzardi 50', the exhaust mixers have almost no down-angle to drain, so water could leak back into the turbo...

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

And what says the panel about the nautical capabilities of a Rizzardi 50' from the nineties? I visited one a couple of years ago which needed some tlc. The small pantry and the flawed exhaust design excepted, I quite liked the boat.

Rizzardi 50 Fly, has a very good hull which comes from the much acclaimed Posillipo 47 Tobago. A true story is told of one caught in full force Hurricane 5 in the Caribbean and entered in harbor a bit bruiosed by unscathed. That hull was later used on the Rizzardi 50 Fly, 50 Open, 50 Top Line and 53 Top Line Rizzardi's. It is considered about the best hull Posillipo ever made. I have been aboard a 47 Tobago and a 50 Top Line and both run very sweet. I have never heard of Turbo problems with the Rizzardi 50s.

The problem with the Rizzardi 50 Fly which I think she shows a bit her age.

 

[Whitelighter]

Nothing wrong with DDs

I was wary of mine - but actually they are pretty good