2nd hand discounts

[Phoenix of Hamble]

All,

The question was asked recently regarding the discounts that might be achievable on new boats... someone mentioned that dealers typically get 15% GM, so won't discount very far.... but what about buying 2nd hand through a broker?

What kind of price do people pay relative to the advertised price for boats priced in the midlle of the typical price range?

I'm looking at the moment, and know clearly what my budget is, but am wondering what kinds of offer to make...

If for example, I see a boat that I like the look of advertised for £32k, with other examples available in various conditions for between £26k and £35k... what would people's initial offer look like?

I ask, because one of the models I have looked at are priced in the high 20's, low 30's, and I am aware of one owner who bought a reasonable one recently for just over £20k.... Was he lucky, or am I not factoring in enough discount against advertised price?!!!!!

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[bruce]

broker charges are part of the contract to sell and are based on selling price, and that problem is the sellers, make an offer based on what you know and are willing to pay for the boat, and let the seller worry about the broker. gen all prices are set high to allow a 'deal'. offer 1/2 of asking price, you can always offer more after you start 'dealing'.

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[Phoenix of Hamble]

Wow....

Is 1/2 a realistic starting point?

If it was my boat, I'd be thinking "joker" at that stage! /forums/images/icons/blush.gif

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[Phoenix of Hamble]

Fatipa,

I'm in agreement with you on that one... we looked at a couple of boats 'in need of some attention', looked at the cost of that attention and very rapidly decided that a boat that has had some TLC is a far better option generally....

I'm more concerned about not knowing what is the difference between the advertised price and the 'street' price....

I'm sure it'll vary by boat type, and the observations about location, market all make sense....

I guess what I'm looking to do is to get a feel for what kind of opening offer I should be making, so as not to pay over the odds, but at the same time, not leave the seller thinking that its not worth even negotiating..... I guess I'm not the first person to ponder this imponderable!

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[Twister_Ken]

Trouble is used boats are not a standard product, so it's difficult to say a 1990 Snotyot 36 sold for £35,000, therefore all 1990 Snotyot 36s are worth £35,000.

There is a base price for a boat, but after that so much depends on condition, equipment, what has been replaced when, extras, etc that without physically comparing one example with another it's difficult to know how much more or less than the base price a boat is worth.

And that's without taking into account the buyer's motivation. There are people who put their boats on the market at a high price on the basis that if they get offered that much they'll sell, but if they don't they'll carry on owning it. OTOH, there are others who are desperate for dough and will sell for any half decent offer.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[Guest]

2nd hand prices ....

These are often perpetuated by one person asking a price that is high - others seeing it and asking same.

Also the longevity of GRP for example giving rise to asking more than originally paid for the boat - unlike cars etc.

My line of boats : asking / paid

2500 1200

3500 1150

9000 7950 still owned - market shows about 9000

Baltic Boats :

1000 500 still owned - market shows about 1200

5000 2000 still owned - market shows about 5000

Ok - above may be very good deals by most standards ... but you should see a reasonable drop in price - anything up to 30% can be got, average probably 10%.

To be honest - its a matter of having the b..ls to stand and make a low offer and stick it out !!!! Took 2 weeks on one boat - then I got call at 7:30 in morning aksing me to pay and truck boat out !!!

There are many that will decry this post and threaten me with dire things ..... why - because they overvalue their prized boats ....

Sorry - but thats my penny-worth.


<hr width=100% size=1>Cheers Nigel http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[StugeronSteve]

"offer 1/2 of asking price, you can always offer more after you start 'dealing'."

I think the phone call might end rather sharply.

Offer whatever the boat is worth to you, maybe a bit less, if the boat is sensibly priced, acknowledge the fact and try negotiating over a few of the goodies the owner might have been keeping (liferaft etc). Most buyers that I know have achieved a 10-20% discount on advertised price though.

<hr width=100% size=1>Think I'll draw some little rabbits on my head, from a distance they might be mistaken for hairs.

 

[Guest]

asking and selling price only approach each other when buyer likes what he sees and believes asking price fair ...... Rocking Horse s...t comes to mind !!!

<hr width=100% size=1>Cheers Nigel http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gps-navigator/

 

[SlowlyButSurely]

Many years ago I offered 3K for a boat that was asking 6K. The offer was turned down flat. Six weeks later I had a phone call from the owner saying he would accept my offer! Too late though unfortunately, I had already bought another one.

One boat I know was up for sale last year asking £23,500. It sold for £14,000 simply because the owner was emigrating and needed to get shot of it quickly.

It's always worth making a low initial offer in my experience.

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[bruce]

when dealing with the owner that is prob true, but the offer to the broker is put on paper and sent on to the owner to reject or make counter offer. perhaps 1/2 may be off, but you just never know, just be sure to be able to back up the low offer for an immediate sale.

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[Twister_Ken]

Going foreign

Don't forget that you can look elsewherein Europe where prices are often better value than in the UK.

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[Sans Bateau]

I will firstly declare my interest, I have a boat for sale in exactly the price bands you are talking about.

How did we arrive at our 'asking price'?

a. How much we paid for the boat 4 years ago.
b. To take account of the improvements and upgrades we have carried out.
c. The asking price of other boats that are up for sale of the same make/size.
d. Phoned around the dealers/brokers for 'a guide'.
e. What we know other boats, same make/size have sold for.


We have priced the boat sensibly, so to suggest that we would even continue a conversation when someone was offering 50% of the asking price is frankly ridiculous! Should a 50% 'offer' be made, I would consider the person a complete time waster, I believe any broker would too, they would loose any credibility as a prospective buyer. There is movement built into the price, between 5 -7%. However there are similar boats on the market same year and older for more money, so there could be up to 12 or 15% movement available in some cases.

That is'nt to say that some boats are only worth 50% of their asking price, you cannot generalise. If you finish up paying full asking price for a good boat in good condition with lots of kit, then you may have got a better deal than buying an old tub that needs the same spent again to bring it up to scratch. It's not just the cost of the equipment, but the time to. An old tub will always be an old tub.

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[Phoenix of Hamble]

ETAP_Owner,

That makes sense.... I have to admit to being uncomfortable with offering 50% of the asking price... if the boat is that badly off the mark in price terms, then they're either not serious about selling, or likely to be ignorant of the boats real worth and the work involved in getting it back to a reasonable condition which would imply poor maintenance etc etc... Caveat Emptor.... and if it isn't that far off the mark, then you are just taking the p*ss...

But I do, as a buyer, not a seller, have to consider what circumstances are leading to the sale... someone above mentioned that people have different reasons for selling, and sometimes a 'low ball' offer might just do it.....

I think that my plan is to find a good looking boat, that is in reasonable condition, may need a little work, and offer 25% below asking, and negotiate to no more than between 10-15% below.....BUT crucially to justify it by being very clear on my opinions about what needs doing as part of the negotiation...

If a seller doesn't agree, then they can choose, quite rightly, not to accept my offer...

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[milltech]

I agree with that, you can always go up. Also I think one can be guided by the boat, if it's a popular and well known model it will be easier to fix a price and offer modestly below. If it's a one off boat, and even worse the kinds I like with "character", you may be the only chump interested so to start with a 50% offer is OK, especially if through a broker.

I did once get threatened with an overboard experience when I did this with the owner in Ramsgate Harbour, he was not amused.

<hr width=100% size=1>John
http://www.on-line-marine.com

 

[Twister_Ken]

Surveyors discounts

You don't get a survey done until a sale has been agreed "subject to survey". If the subsequent survey turns up something which impacts the value of the boat, then you're perfectly entitled to ask for a price reduction to bring the boat back to the condition the vendor said/pretended it was in. Bearing in mind that a run-of-mill surveyor won't do much to look at the rig or the engine, if you suspect either of these is dodgy, you might want to get separate rig and engine surveys done. I didn't and unexpectedly ended up re-engining after 6 months of ownership, by which time there was no way to pursue the previous owner.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.writeforweb.com/twister1>Let's Twist Again</A>

 

[jac]

I have literally just sold Roma - still waiting for the final details to be sorted out.

We agreed on an initial asking price of £23k based on what she was originally bought for, the several thousand spent on new equipment,updates etc that were remaining on board and the asking price of other boats of same model and age.

We received an offer of £17k which we didn;t even consider for a moment. We ultimately then agreed on a 10% reduction subject to survey.

The survey then revealed a few items that needed sorting out. Through the broker we got quotes and agreed with the buyer who would pay for what. E,g, The surveyor wasn't happy with the standard of the gas installation - we paid for that. Also not happy with the flame failure devices of the cooker - we agreed to pay for 1/2 the cost of repair - in the end the buyer bought a new cooker - our contribution was the same cash wise.

When I buy again it will be on a similar basis. Price the boat on an as is basis on the assumption that all the equipment etc works referencing the price against other good examples of similar boats. Adjust the price dependent on newness (or otherwise) of equipment or any "obvious" work needed to bring her up to same spec ( e.g adding additional equipment, restoring GRP etc) and make offer a little below your target price.

Offer subject to survey - state that if the survey finds any faults then they should be rectified at owners expense and take from there.

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[Sans Bateau]

NAS

You know how much you can spend on a boat, you have your budget. If for example you have £25,000 for boat, extra kit, survey, insurance etc. You may 'try' to buy a £30,000 boat in that budget, but it will not work. Its better to stay in budget and get a realy good one, rather than stretch yourself and finish up with a lot of problems, spending next season refitting rather than sailing! We have all done it, not just boats but cars and houses too. Rarely do you get a real 'steal' without there being hidden baggage.

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[Phoenix of Hamble]

ETAP_owner,

I agree completely ... I certainly didn't intend to give an impression otherwise....

I plan on buying a good boat of the style, type and budget I am looking for rather than a 'could do with a bit to tidying' version......

The boats I am looking at are typical 20 to 25 yrs old, and most, while often in excellent condition, lack some of the things I want such as heating and a decent chartplotter.... so the gap between what I want to pay, and my budget is aimed at this, and this alone... I don't want to spend lots of money on 'sorting out'... at least not in my first season anyway! (and before someone mentions it... I'm not naive... I know that a boat of that age will inevitaby need money spending on it here and there, if nothing else, as routine maintenance)

So, I think in line with most comments above, I'm happy to pay a fair price.... thats only reasonable.... and its a much better way of ending up with a decent boat, rather than a lemon..... but I don't want to pay the extra 10% that the broker has added on, because occasionally someone pays it!... my approach is to look at boats that are priced within my budget, not slightly above it... and if I do end up saving a little extra over plan, well great, that'll perhaps fund a few extras that I didn't think I could afford such as a radar or an electric windlass.....

Twister_Ken... I was more inferring that I would form my own opinions, such as sail condition, windows leaking, etc etc, and use this to justify the lower price, rather than just bluntly offer a load below the asking price with no justification... if the survey then suggests additional problems, then this will no doubt cause a further round of negotiation... I just don't like the idea of offering someone a really low price for what might be their pride and joy without at least justifying it... /forums/images/icons/blush.gif

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[Sans Bateau]

Looks like you know what you are doing, it is good sometimes to be able to 'kick an idea around', to see what others think.

Enjoy yourself buying your boat, whats more enjoy sailing her!

You would'nt be interested in an ETAP then?!

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[Phoenix of Hamble]

Thanks!

"it is good sometimes to be able to 'kick an idea around', to see what others think"...

.....precisely... I have my own opinions, but I'm old enough and ugly enough to know that they're not the only ones!

I think this will have been a useful thread for buyers and sellers alike.... we're all amateur psychologists after all!

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