2 anchors on the bow - too much weight?

demonboy

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We're lucky enough to have three bow rollers, one of which stows our main 45lb CQR. We have inherited two kedges, both are that cheapie Danforth copy design. One must be approx 30lbs whilst the other much, much bigger (50kgs?).

Anyway, would it be worth sticking the smaller of the two kedges on the other bow-roller and, if so, should it have some chain and mostly rope? How do I stow the extra chain? Should I connect the chain to the anchor by an uncorroded shackle, allowing me to stow the chain elsewhere and just attach it when I need it? Or is all that weight on the bow not advisable?

The reason for my quandary is storage space. The lazzarette currently houses the smaller kedge but it's on 30m of chain. When the time comes to use it it's gonna be a real pain getting it out and carting the whole lot down 43ft of boat. The larger kedge is not even on the boat. Should I bring it back on and just attach some rope to it and find space in the lazarette?

Anyone with twin-anchoring experience are welcome to comment but if anyone dares turn this into 'what-type-of-anchor-should-I-be-using' thread I'll personally come round and kick their a$$!
 

Bajansailor

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I think that an extra 20kg of weight on the bow of a 43' cruising yacht is really not going to make much difference to eg pitching moment.

Re your very big Danforth type anchor, always useful to have a storm anchor on board - you could perhaps lash it securely to the aft pushpit rail.

Here is an interesting article by some folk who believe in having 'oversized' ground tackle - have a look at http://www.setsail.com/s_logs/dashew/dashew227.html
Lots of other good info elsewhere on Setsail as well.
 

craigsmith

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[ QUOTE ]
We're lucky enough to have three bow rollers, one of which stows our main 45lb CQR. We have inherited two kedges, both are that cheapie Danforth copy design. One must be approx 30lbs whilst the other much, much bigger (50kgs?).

Anyway, would it be worth sticking the smaller of the two kedges on the other bow-roller and, if so, should it have some chain and mostly rope? How do I stow the extra chain? Should I connect the chain to the anchor by an uncorroded shackle, allowing me to stow the chain elsewhere and just attach it when I need it? Or is all that weight on the bow not advisable?

[/ QUOTE ]I would say it depends on what anchoring you intend to do, and that you are the best person to answer the question. Generally, it is a bad idea to have two anchors on the bow, for several reasons. Increased weight at the pointy end is one. Always having to deal with two interfering with each other is another. Putting all the same weight into a single anchor up there will usually be a much better idea, as it will allow you to always use a good sized anchor. (Regardless of type, although I will dare to say especially with a CQR: on a 43' boat, a 45lb anchor is a touch undersized).

I would only leave the two there if I really needed to use two anchors at once, often. Do you plan to frequently use tandem, Bahamian, or other dual-rigs?

If you want the smaller Danforth next to the CQR, its rode again depends on intended use. Most Danforths are sensitive to high pulling angles, so you either need a lot of heavy chain for catenary, or a commitment to always deploying enough scope (in which case lots of rope is all you need). If you however intend to use the CQR and Danforth at once (bad idea but I will adhere to the avoidance of anchor types debate) the two rodes should be similar in make-up and characteristics.
 

GMac

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Any weight on the bow of a yacht is bad, a simple fact.

It's more of a question of 'Do I twin anchor that often I choose to live with reduced performance in lieu of the convenience?'
 

LadyJessie

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I would not worry about the extra weight on a 43ft cruising boat. More of a problem would be two anchor chains in the same locker. The opportunity for getting them tangled would for me be the main problem. In the end, how often would you really use two anchors? I did not need that all last year and the year before I used that once in a gale. However, I think that was more a comfortable "belt and braces approach" and I would probably been OK with one, although with less sleep.
 

jimbaerselman

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[ QUOTE ]
If you however intend to use the CQR and Danforth at once (bad idea but I will adhere to the avoidance of anchor types debate) the two rodes should be similar in make-up and characteristics.


[/ QUOTE ] I don't understand why you say that.

For a Bahamian moor (up tide, down tide) it doesn't matter if there's a difference in rodes as long as they both allow a decent scope and as long as the anchors are well set.

For a forked moor, again, it doesn't matter if the rodes are different - say, one all chain, and one all rope - as long as you have enough scope out. You'll gain the great advantage that strain is only exerted along the line of each anchor's shank as you sail from side to side.

On a chafing bottom, of course, ideally you should have sufficient chain at the anchor end. However, in both moors above the lateral movement of the rode along the bottom is trivial compared to single anchoring. Unless there's a really big tidal rise and fall.
 

FAITIRA

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I would be careful mounting the 2 as the chain on the main anchor may interfere with the one left on the stem, and I agree with above, 45lb does seem light enough for your boat.
 

demonboy

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Like I said, this isn't a discussion about what type of anchor so I will not even entertain a response on whether the CQR is too light for our boat. Indeed if our CQR sounds too light then you've answered my question - having a second anchor at the bow isn't going to make any difference.

I guess what I'm trying to get my head round now is chain/warp combination and where that chain is stowed. I wouldn't dream of stowing the second chain in the main anchor locker, but maybe 10m could be kept on standby, attached to a long warp, ready to attach to the second anchor when needed. Perhaps this could be kept in a pouch on the pulpit, though even just 10m takes up a fair bit of room. I have 30m at the moment but I really don't want to be chopping my anchor chain up. I still can't get my head round dragging 30m of chain from the lazarette to the other end of the boat.

So, still a little confused but coming round to the post from GMac:

"'Do I twin anchor that often I choose to live with reduced performance in lieu of the convenience?' "
 

Gerry

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We have a 40 footer. Carry a 65lb CQR and 45lb CQR on twin bow rollers. The 65lb is attatched to chain and is our main anchor the 45lb SITS ALONE AND WE RIG A MASSIVE OCTOPLAIT on 40 feet of chain as and when we need it. When not connected we keep the chain in a bucket in the forward heads and the octoplait in the lazarette. It takes about 5 mins to connect everyuthing together ready to deploy. We have it at the ready on the foredeck when at anchor in bad conditions in case we need to deploy fast, actually thats only happened a couple of times but it worked very well. The second anchor is also available to connect with its own chain if we want to anchor in tandem.
On long ocean passages both anchors are stowed below and the chain pipe seales, its amazing how much water you can take on board via that little pipe.
 

FAITIRA

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Last boat, 44ft, 22t, had main 35kg on 12mm chain, never felt the need to have a second hanging off the bow, we had three rigged when there was a hurricane warning in the Vigins, but never ever moved in normal, for example strong gale conditions on the one bower.
 

demonboy

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Gerry, I'm very interested in your set-up, it sounds pretty sensible. Storing the chain in the forward heads makes sense and I see a solution evolving (spare chain in the forepeak). One question: don't you require a very big bucket to contain 40m of chain?
 

GMac

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[ QUOTE ]
"'Do I twin anchor that often I choose to live with reduced performance in lieu of the convenience?' "

[/ QUOTE ]

Any weight in the ends of a yacht is bad of that there is no question.

So do I carry that penalty all the time for the 'odd' time I use 2 anchors or do I only use 1 anchor 99% of the time and prefer my boat to perform better when I'm using it as a yacht.

Remember it is cumulative. 1 x anchor plus chain plus rope plus plus and so on. Only a 40lb (example size) anchor yes but another 200lb of rode behind it and so on. All of a sudden you have a person equivalent standing on your bow 24/7.

FYI - a 20lt paint bucket will just hold 40mts of 8mm short link. Weight 56kg / 124lb.
 

davidbains

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40 ft of chain plus rode is enough for the second anchor.
The second anchor could be an alloy Fortress in the focsle for the no of times you use it.
Very light and easy to move into posn or even into a dinghy.
That's what we do anyway for forked anchoring. Great in a blow.
Especially with two large foredeck cleats.
 

jimbaerselman

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[ QUOTE ]
Any weight in the ends of a yacht is bad of that there is no question.


[/ QUOTE ] As a general statement for live aboard or cruising I'd disagree with that. Downwind or reaching or in calm water your pitching moments of inertia make no difference to boat's performance, though trim could be an issue. Going to windward - yes - your 'hobby-horsing' frequency is changed. Vessels racing prefer very light ends for the small advantage that gives at short wave frequencies - the sort found in stronger winds where there's short fetch.

My conclusion is that for cruising conditions (less to windward, and when windward, usually longer fetches, longer swells) 'hobby horsing' and its rare penalties are not relevant.

So I'd hang it out at the bow (or over the stern) without second thought, gaining comfort or usability. Looks like a typical live-aboard boat then, doesn't it?
 

GMac

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[ QUOTE ]
My conclusion is that for cruising conditions (less to windward, and when windward, usually longer fetches, longer swells) 'hobby horsing' and its rare penalties are not relevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Speed and comfort not relevant. Personally I like quicker and smooth over slow and wobbly. Cruising or not. Moving things out of the ends can make very significant differences.

Gerry - It's Yes, you can just fit 40mts into a 20lt bucket. If you only have 40ft yes you can use a smaller bucket.
 
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