1kg fire extinguishers ABC powder from Lidl
- Thread starter ITH
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MoodySabre
Well-Known Member
How many fire extinguishers
Thanks for the nod - I'll be there. Shall we start a fire extinguisher debate?
When I bought my boat (Moody 31 fore and aft cabins) the surveyor said that I should get RYA Booklet C8/02 and bring my fire equipment up to speed. I haven't.
I have a fire blanket in galley, an extinguisher in aft cabin easily reached from the galley, a extinguisher on the far end of the saloon table easily reached from forecabin and an automatic extinguisher in the engine box. I cannot reach an extinguisher from the cockpit - therein lies the weak point me thinks.
Any views and what have you got?
Thanks for the nod - I'll be there. Shall we start a fire extinguisher debate?
When I bought my boat (Moody 31 fore and aft cabins) the surveyor said that I should get RYA Booklet C8/02 and bring my fire equipment up to speed. I haven't.
I have a fire blanket in galley, an extinguisher in aft cabin easily reached from the galley, a extinguisher on the far end of the saloon table easily reached from forecabin and an automatic extinguisher in the engine box. I cannot reach an extinguisher from the cockpit - therein lies the weak point me thinks.
Any views and what have you got?
bazobeleza
Well-Known Member
Re: How many fire extinguishers
2kg Chubb dry powder in the forecabin in the galley alonside fire blanket, and one by the wheelhouse door, all from Costco about 17 quid. A 6kg dry powder in the stern cabin, 12 quid from Aldi , an automatic 2.5kg halon replacement from a specialist 225 quid, a 24" CO2 backup in the engine room and finally a Ikg dry powder by the small genny on the aft deck.
Two problems, firstly they're all going to go out of date together, Secondly they must add an inch to the displacement of the boat.
Still I might have a fighting chance of fighting a afire.
2kg Chubb dry powder in the forecabin in the galley alonside fire blanket, and one by the wheelhouse door, all from Costco about 17 quid. A 6kg dry powder in the stern cabin, 12 quid from Aldi , an automatic 2.5kg halon replacement from a specialist 225 quid, a 24" CO2 backup in the engine room and finally a Ikg dry powder by the small genny on the aft deck.
Two problems, firstly they're all going to go out of date together, Secondly they must add an inch to the displacement of the boat.
Still I might have a fighting chance of fighting a afire.
ITH
Well-Known Member
Re: How many fire extinguishers
According to C8/02 "being trapped in the accommodation is the most immediate danger from fire on a yacht . . " hence the recommendation for at least two extinguishers, stowed at accommodation exits, and with a minimum power rating of 5A/34B. Ocean sailing types are supposed to have three of them!
The Lidl offering is a 5A/34B rating, but since it's only 1kg, it won't last more than 10 seconds or so: might not be man enough for a major fire? Also the fire service don't recommend the use of dry powder for accommodation areas. Still at £4.99 a pop I'll buy four of them, and stow them inside accommodation as well as at the exits.
The other recommendation is for one, more powerful (13A/113B), general purpose extinguisher - which seems to be the only thing you're lacking? Unfortunately the recommended size is a 6l foam spray type, which is quite a size. I've opted for a more manageable 3l water extinguisher for cooling and stopping re-ignition.
Also haven't yet got round to an automatic engine compartment system; still saving up.
According to C8/02 "being trapped in the accommodation is the most immediate danger from fire on a yacht . . " hence the recommendation for at least two extinguishers, stowed at accommodation exits, and with a minimum power rating of 5A/34B. Ocean sailing types are supposed to have three of them!
The Lidl offering is a 5A/34B rating, but since it's only 1kg, it won't last more than 10 seconds or so: might not be man enough for a major fire? Also the fire service don't recommend the use of dry powder for accommodation areas. Still at £4.99 a pop I'll buy four of them, and stow them inside accommodation as well as at the exits.
The other recommendation is for one, more powerful (13A/113B), general purpose extinguisher - which seems to be the only thing you're lacking? Unfortunately the recommended size is a 6l foam spray type, which is quite a size. I've opted for a more manageable 3l water extinguisher for cooling and stopping re-ignition.
Also haven't yet got round to an automatic engine compartment system; still saving up.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Re: How many fire extinguishers
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the nod - I'll be there. Shall we start a fire extinguisher debate?
[/ QUOTE ]I used to be in the business for a time - Chubb and Thorn - on the detection side but got involved in extinguishing. AFFF foam extinguishers are way, way, more effective than powder and probably do less damage - powder is horribly damaging. Foam is basically water. Foam cools the fire and excludes O2, powder only excludes O2.
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the nod - I'll be there. Shall we start a fire extinguisher debate?
[/ QUOTE ]I used to be in the business for a time - Chubb and Thorn - on the detection side but got involved in extinguishing. AFFF foam extinguishers are way, way, more effective than powder and probably do less damage - powder is horribly damaging. Foam is basically water. Foam cools the fire and excludes O2, powder only excludes O2.
tedsmith
Well-Known Member
Re: How many fire extinguishers
Agree for sure.
Had all my fire extinguishers checked over the other day by expert and I bought foam from him.
As you (and he) say, the foam degenerates to water after a while. It does not shoot out like a hose of water does (and miss the fire) - many foam types have a nozzle with multiple holes to 'spread' the foam.
Foam is best.
Was very surprised when he told me how long ( or not ) the fire extinguisher works for (small ones = seconds only)
Agree for sure.
Had all my fire extinguishers checked over the other day by expert and I bought foam from him.
As you (and he) say, the foam degenerates to water after a while. It does not shoot out like a hose of water does (and miss the fire) - many foam types have a nozzle with multiple holes to 'spread' the foam.
Foam is best.
Was very surprised when he told me how long ( or not ) the fire extinguisher works for (small ones = seconds only)
Blue5
Well-Known Member
Re: How many fire extinguishers
I thought it very much depended on the type of fire, foam is not reccomended for flamable or liquified gases, gas must be one of the biggest hazards aboard.
I thought it very much depended on the type of fire, foam is not reccomended for flamable or liquified gases, gas must be one of the biggest hazards aboard.
toad
Well-Known Member
Re: How many fire extinguishers
I see Makro are doing 6l foam or 2kg co2 for £40 each + vat
I see Makro are doing 6l foam or 2kg co2 for £40 each + vat
A
Anonymous
Guest
Re: How many fire extinguishers
[ QUOTE ]
I thought it very much depended on the type of fire, foam is not reccomended for flamable or liquified gases, gas must be one of the biggest hazards aboard.
[/ QUOTE ]No, foam and water are the traditional extinguishants for LPG in both gas and liquid phase, though total flood CO2/halon is excellent in confined compartments. The big problem areas are mains (lethal) electrical = no water but actually AFFF should be fine, and with oil fires water is not good as oil floats on water; again AFFF is good. On a boat you can use AFFF on any fire that I can think of.
[ QUOTE ]
I thought it very much depended on the type of fire, foam is not reccomended for flamable or liquified gases, gas must be one of the biggest hazards aboard.
[/ QUOTE ]No, foam and water are the traditional extinguishants for LPG in both gas and liquid phase, though total flood CO2/halon is excellent in confined compartments. The big problem areas are mains (lethal) electrical = no water but actually AFFF should be fine, and with oil fires water is not good as oil floats on water; again AFFF is good. On a boat you can use AFFF on any fire that I can think of.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Re: How many fire extinguishers
[ QUOTE ]
I see Makro are doing 6l foam or 2kg co2 for £40 each + vat
[/ QUOTE ]CO2 is good on electrical fires as damage is almost zero BUT you need a lot of CO2 - can a yacht carry enough? CO2 will also knock you out, of course! Halon was much better as you only needed 5% concentration and can breathe 5% Halon perfectly safely. Shame. I think that for an electrical fire in a panel, after killing all power, you might prefer CO2 if available as you would want to re-wire after using foam - though you'd get into port OK after the fire was out and the insurance would pay. Better to have the fire out, I reckon, and there is nothing quite like foam for putting fires out.
[ QUOTE ]
I see Makro are doing 6l foam or 2kg co2 for £40 each + vat
[/ QUOTE ]CO2 is good on electrical fires as damage is almost zero BUT you need a lot of CO2 - can a yacht carry enough? CO2 will also knock you out, of course! Halon was much better as you only needed 5% concentration and can breathe 5% Halon perfectly safely. Shame. I think that for an electrical fire in a panel, after killing all power, you might prefer CO2 if available as you would want to re-wire after using foam - though you'd get into port OK after the fire was out and the insurance would pay. Better to have the fire out, I reckon, and there is nothing quite like foam for putting fires out.
Blue5
Well-Known Member
Re: How many fire extinguishers
[ QUOTE ]
No, foam and water are the traditional extinguishants for LPG in both gas and liquid phase, though total flood CO2/halon is excellent in confined compartments. The big problem areas are mains (lethal) electrical = no water but actually AFFF should be fine, and with oil fires water is not good as oil floats on water; again AFFF is good. On a boat you can use AFFF on any fire that I can think of.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I think we will agree to differ on that then. Having just attended a fire safety course at Bristol Airport the use of water or foam on LPG is not reccomended, the spot cooling qualities of water could cause a fracture of a gas pressure vessel ie a bomb. The practical demonstration showed powder to be far superior in knocking down a gas fire, (although not as good as Halon) the down side granted is the mess and corosive nature of the powder but I think I would rather have the fire out quickly and let the insurance take care of the rest.
[ QUOTE ]
No, foam and water are the traditional extinguishants for LPG in both gas and liquid phase, though total flood CO2/halon is excellent in confined compartments. The big problem areas are mains (lethal) electrical = no water but actually AFFF should be fine, and with oil fires water is not good as oil floats on water; again AFFF is good. On a boat you can use AFFF on any fire that I can think of.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well I think we will agree to differ on that then. Having just attended a fire safety course at Bristol Airport the use of water or foam on LPG is not reccomended, the spot cooling qualities of water could cause a fracture of a gas pressure vessel ie a bomb. The practical demonstration showed powder to be far superior in knocking down a gas fire, (although not as good as Halon) the down side granted is the mess and corosive nature of the powder but I think I would rather have the fire out quickly and let the insurance take care of the rest.
FullCircle
Well-Known Member
Roger,
you know my craft is well equipped. The last part of the jigsaw is that I a large 6kg powder hanging inside the cockpit locker. Immediate action with 1 and 2kg in cabin, then: Get out, then fight your way back in with the biggie.
you know my craft is well equipped. The last part of the jigsaw is that I a large 6kg powder hanging inside the cockpit locker. Immediate action with 1 and 2kg in cabin, then: Get out, then fight your way back in with the biggie.
misterg
Well-Known Member
Re: How many fire extinguishers
[ QUOTE ]
gas must be one of the biggest hazards aboard.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe, but I can think of 2 scenarios -
1) A leak which accumulates before igniting. This will just explode, there's no point in an extinguisher /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
2) A leak which is burning at its source. If you put the flame out, you then have a leak accumulating gas on board, ready to explode at the first source of ignition (maybe the smouldering remains of what you just extinguished?). The best course of action is to let it burn, but to isolate the gas supply. It will go out on its own (leaving you to extinguish whatever it has set fire to, without the risk of explosion.)
I very much doubt that a yacht carries enough volume of gas to worry about dealing with it in liquid form (there'll probably be enough heat in the surroundings to flash everything to gas in short order).
In short, gas explosions are a signigficant hazard, but fire extinguishers can't prevent this (unless by preventing an existing fire reaching the gas installation.)
Andy
[ QUOTE ]
gas must be one of the biggest hazards aboard.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe, but I can think of 2 scenarios -
1) A leak which accumulates before igniting. This will just explode, there's no point in an extinguisher /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
2) A leak which is burning at its source. If you put the flame out, you then have a leak accumulating gas on board, ready to explode at the first source of ignition (maybe the smouldering remains of what you just extinguished?). The best course of action is to let it burn, but to isolate the gas supply. It will go out on its own (leaving you to extinguish whatever it has set fire to, without the risk of explosion.)
I very much doubt that a yacht carries enough volume of gas to worry about dealing with it in liquid form (there'll probably be enough heat in the surroundings to flash everything to gas in short order).
In short, gas explosions are a signigficant hazard, but fire extinguishers can't prevent this (unless by preventing an existing fire reaching the gas installation.)
Andy
A
Anonymous
Guest
Re: How many fire extinguishers
[ QUOTE ]
Well I think we will agree to differ on that then. Having just attended a fire safety course at Bristol Airport the use of water or foam on LPG is not reccomended, the spot cooling qualities of water could cause a fracture of a gas pressure vessel ie a bomb. The practical demonstration showed powder to be far superior in knocking down a gas fire, (although not as good as Halon)
[/ QUOTE ]I'm surprised. How big was the container being considered? As soon as you have a fire in an LPG storage area you start water spray cooling on all tanks and around bunds if present; in the case of significant liquid/gas you lay down a foam carpet with foam monitors and this helps to blanket off the potentially explosive liquid/gas spilt. This has been standard practice for at least thirty years. I see that NFPA information is now online so we could check - typically the BS material is not available as you have to pay for it (!!) A quick Google suggests that the NFPA position has not changed - i.e. water cooling and foam is the norm.
Exactly what was being demonstrated, and how did they simulate or create the fire that was knocked down? How big was the powder extinguisher? I have never heard of powder being the extinguishant of choice for LPG.
[ QUOTE ]
Well I think we will agree to differ on that then. Having just attended a fire safety course at Bristol Airport the use of water or foam on LPG is not reccomended, the spot cooling qualities of water could cause a fracture of a gas pressure vessel ie a bomb. The practical demonstration showed powder to be far superior in knocking down a gas fire, (although not as good as Halon)
[/ QUOTE ]I'm surprised. How big was the container being considered? As soon as you have a fire in an LPG storage area you start water spray cooling on all tanks and around bunds if present; in the case of significant liquid/gas you lay down a foam carpet with foam monitors and this helps to blanket off the potentially explosive liquid/gas spilt. This has been standard practice for at least thirty years. I see that NFPA information is now online so we could check - typically the BS material is not available as you have to pay for it (!!) A quick Google suggests that the NFPA position has not changed - i.e. water cooling and foam is the norm.
Exactly what was being demonstrated, and how did they simulate or create the fire that was knocked down? How big was the powder extinguisher? I have never heard of powder being the extinguishant of choice for LPG.
Blue5
Well-Known Member
Re: How many fire extinguishers
The simulation was using a 19kg gas cylinder with a supply hose to an open pipe, attendeess were invited to tackle the fire in vapour form and then by inverting the cylinder in liquid form to see the difference. We used 2.5kg dry powder extinguishers, probably the size you would have onboard. Agreed they use water as spray cooling for LPG in garage fires but only now remotely from a safe distance when they have set up an exclusion zone as the risk of explosion is high.
Best practices do change and I would reccomend a fire safety course for anyone as an insight into the various ways to tackle different classes of fires with the correct extinguisher choice.
The simulation was using a 19kg gas cylinder with a supply hose to an open pipe, attendeess were invited to tackle the fire in vapour form and then by inverting the cylinder in liquid form to see the difference. We used 2.5kg dry powder extinguishers, probably the size you would have onboard. Agreed they use water as spray cooling for LPG in garage fires but only now remotely from a safe distance when they have set up an exclusion zone as the risk of explosion is high.
Best practices do change and I would reccomend a fire safety course for anyone as an insight into the various ways to tackle different classes of fires with the correct extinguisher choice.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Re: How many fire extinguishers
[ QUOTE ]
Best practices do change and I would reccomend a fire safety course for anyone as an insight into the various ways to tackle different classes of fires with the correct extinguisher choice.
[/ QUOTE ]Yes, best practices do change but from my initial searches I'm not convinced that the NFPA has changed and NFPA is the leading regulator certainly in fixed extinguishant and probably portables also.
Thinking 'yachts' I agree that everyone would benefit from going on a familiarisation course - these small extinguishers are marginal and you don't want to be wasting 50% of the contents 'getting the hang of it'. However, you only have space for one types of extinguisher on a small yacht up to, say, 65'. I do not think that you can reasonably carry a choice of extinguisher as there isn't the space. Given that you will only have one extinguisher type, it should be foam.
Going back to your concern about the gas bottle getting so hot that foam might cause it to fracture, I don't see that ever happening in practice on a yacht when you are still aboard. Fires don't happen in gas lockers - others have already discussed the difference between explosive concentrations of gas and fires. If you did have a massive gas spill into a bilge or locker then discharging a foam extinguisher into the area would help to prevent an explosion. If a gas bottle was - for any reason, say an incorrectly stored spare cylinder - then plenty of water to cool it is about all you CAN do apart from put the fire out at its seat, which you can do more quickly and effectively with foam.
Did your instructors realise that you can only carry one type of extinguisher on a yacht? If so, did they still recommend that it should be powder? If so, I am very surprised and I would like to know on what basis they made that recommendation.
[ QUOTE ]
Best practices do change and I would reccomend a fire safety course for anyone as an insight into the various ways to tackle different classes of fires with the correct extinguisher choice.
[/ QUOTE ]Yes, best practices do change but from my initial searches I'm not convinced that the NFPA has changed and NFPA is the leading regulator certainly in fixed extinguishant and probably portables also.
Thinking 'yachts' I agree that everyone would benefit from going on a familiarisation course - these small extinguishers are marginal and you don't want to be wasting 50% of the contents 'getting the hang of it'. However, you only have space for one types of extinguisher on a small yacht up to, say, 65'. I do not think that you can reasonably carry a choice of extinguisher as there isn't the space. Given that you will only have one extinguisher type, it should be foam.
Going back to your concern about the gas bottle getting so hot that foam might cause it to fracture, I don't see that ever happening in practice on a yacht when you are still aboard. Fires don't happen in gas lockers - others have already discussed the difference between explosive concentrations of gas and fires. If you did have a massive gas spill into a bilge or locker then discharging a foam extinguisher into the area would help to prevent an explosion. If a gas bottle was - for any reason, say an incorrectly stored spare cylinder - then plenty of water to cool it is about all you CAN do apart from put the fire out at its seat, which you can do more quickly and effectively with foam.
Did your instructors realise that you can only carry one type of extinguisher on a yacht? If so, did they still recommend that it should be powder? If so, I am very surprised and I would like to know on what basis they made that recommendation.
graham
Well-Known Member
Re: How many fire extinguishers
This topic came up on the Bristol Channel forum last year. One contributor a fire fighter with 30 years service recommended Dry Powder for any fire on the boat. Thats good enough advise for me.
I have done a one day fire safety at sea type course but you cant compare any course with a lifelong proffesionals opinion.
He also recommended having an extinguisher in a cockpit locker.Which I hadnt thought of before,
This topic came up on the Bristol Channel forum last year. One contributor a fire fighter with 30 years service recommended Dry Powder for any fire on the boat. Thats good enough advise for me.
I have done a one day fire safety at sea type course but you cant compare any course with a lifelong proffesionals opinion.
He also recommended having an extinguisher in a cockpit locker.Which I hadnt thought of before,
TJAGAIN
Well-Known Member
Re: How many fire extinguishers
so what,s this halon replacement about ? i have one yet to be fitted in the engine bay. are they any good? i hope so.
so what,s this halon replacement about ? i have one yet to be fitted in the engine bay. are they any good? i hope so.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
Re: How many fire extinguishers
I had an engine fire in a car, quite a few years ago. The engine was cold, as petrol overflowing the carburettor was ignited by a spark when first started in the morning. I used a powder extinguisher and found it close to useless. The fire continued to reignite time after time, until the extinguisher was empty, which didn't take long. In the end I threw water over it. I never got the white stain off the engine.
On all of the offshore fire-fighting courses that I attended there was a standard trick question. After asking us what type of extinguisher we would use to fight various flammable substances, solids, liquids, etc., we would be asked ' and what would you use to fight gas fires?' The answer, of course, is that you don't. Extinguishing the flame releases gas, potentially far more dangerous than the fire. You turn off the supply instead.
I had an engine fire in a car, quite a few years ago. The engine was cold, as petrol overflowing the carburettor was ignited by a spark when first started in the morning. I used a powder extinguisher and found it close to useless. The fire continued to reignite time after time, until the extinguisher was empty, which didn't take long. In the end I threw water over it. I never got the white stain off the engine.
On all of the offshore fire-fighting courses that I attended there was a standard trick question. After asking us what type of extinguisher we would use to fight various flammable substances, solids, liquids, etc., we would be asked ' and what would you use to fight gas fires?' The answer, of course, is that you don't. Extinguishing the flame releases gas, potentially far more dangerous than the fire. You turn off the supply instead.
CelebrityScandel
Well-Known Member
Re: How many fire extinguishers
I think there is room for much confusion when you start mentioning NFPA and LPGs together because the USA uses a different Fire Class system to the rest of us.
As far as I know the USA still lumps flammable liquids and flammable gases together in Class B and Class C is electrical, whereas Europe and most of (perhaps all of) the rest of the western world Class C is flammable gases (which includes LPGs) and electrical is Class E.
You will find that outside of USA foam portable extinguishers are AB and so not regarded as suitable for flammable gas fires, whereas most dry powder are ABC so suitable for flammable gases.
I think that the USA Class B inclusion of flammable gases with flammable liquids may be a hangover from vapour suppression off flammable liquid fuels (for which foam is fine) but that is just an assumption on my part, whereas the rest of us look at flammable gases as being in a different class and any LPG fire able to be handled with a portable extinguisher will be essentially a flammable gas one rather than vapour off an exposed pool of liquid (which likely would be a BLEVE /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif). Obviously, if possible, the first action is to try and isolate the gas.
Whatever though, as far as I know the universal recommendation for portable extinguishers for general application, even including on road vehicles carrying dangerous goods, is dry powder. Unless one wants to carry mixed types of extinguishers (which is never recommended unless they can be placed so that no confusion exists between them when using, which is almost never for most of us but may be possible to have a different type within a boat's engine compartment with only low voltages against elsewhere in the boat) then the choice is dry powder.
I think there is room for much confusion when you start mentioning NFPA and LPGs together because the USA uses a different Fire Class system to the rest of us.
As far as I know the USA still lumps flammable liquids and flammable gases together in Class B and Class C is electrical, whereas Europe and most of (perhaps all of) the rest of the western world Class C is flammable gases (which includes LPGs) and electrical is Class E.
You will find that outside of USA foam portable extinguishers are AB and so not regarded as suitable for flammable gas fires, whereas most dry powder are ABC so suitable for flammable gases.
I think that the USA Class B inclusion of flammable gases with flammable liquids may be a hangover from vapour suppression off flammable liquid fuels (for which foam is fine) but that is just an assumption on my part, whereas the rest of us look at flammable gases as being in a different class and any LPG fire able to be handled with a portable extinguisher will be essentially a flammable gas one rather than vapour off an exposed pool of liquid (which likely would be a BLEVE /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif). Obviously, if possible, the first action is to try and isolate the gas.
Whatever though, as far as I know the universal recommendation for portable extinguishers for general application, even including on road vehicles carrying dangerous goods, is dry powder. Unless one wants to carry mixed types of extinguishers (which is never recommended unless they can be placed so that no confusion exists between them when using, which is almost never for most of us but may be possible to have a different type within a boat's engine compartment with only low voltages against elsewhere in the boat) then the choice is dry powder.
