olam
Well-Known Member
Its an old Malo,mid eighty's, Probably a 106 or a 116 35/38 ft.
‘Medicane’ First Hand
- Thread starter pks1702
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GHA
Well-Known Member
Was delivering a Gibsea 96 once going past the south side of Sicily. The winds peaked at around fifty knots but the sea state was flipping horrible.
Went to Malta to dry boat out and drink lager.
70Kts nearly twice the force of 50Kts, must have been crazy. You'd need a whisky chaser
capnsensible
Well-Known Member
70Kts nearly twice the force of 50Kts, must have been crazy. You'd need a whisky chaser
Rum.
It was a following sea, ran with a bit of headsail, big rollers, tiller. Strict instructions to crew to follow the course and Do Not Look Behind You.....:nonchalance:
ip485
Well-Known Member
I wasnt going to comment again .. .. but
In aviation pilot's "do" a full module well titled "human factors". It is useful, not just to aviation, but to life in general.
As I commented earlier, human factors play a huge part, and they arent the same for everyone.
Someone who has seen a particular set of conditions numerous times before, or particular events, is far more likely to cope. There are many other factors that come to play, that determine how well we will each cope.
I have every symphathy for this debate. Whatever the video shows, or doesnt, regarding the conditons, on the face of it the yacht doesnt appear in immediate danger, and the sole crew member appears in good health and able to move around as easily at any rate as the conditions would allow. If the conditions abated further, there is every chance that he could resolve the situation without immediate threat to himself or the yacht.
Of course we dont know how he was personally coping, and this is were human factors become so important, which was my earlier point.
To put out a distress simply because it is windy would seem unwarranted, to put out a distress because there is an immediate threat, perceived or otherwise, would seem rational. Second, judging what was rational for one person and not for another, is a dangerous game.
To revert to aviation, even for a trained pilot, an engine failure in a twin engined aircraft, for some might warrant a distress, for some a Pan and for some a Mayday. I doubt there is a correct answer as it depends on many factors, and for a pilot who has no reason to believe it might result in the second engine failing, but has for whatever reason managed to scare himself silly, it would be a prudent call because it is more likely to come to a happy ending with some help. The same is true of a skipper. The point at which you are totally stressed and the rational grey matter is shutting down is a good point to at least put out a Pan, especially if you are on your own, because every bit of help might just make the difference. More to the point, unlike with even amateur aviation, we arent dealing with professionals. There is no standard by which to judge. At least with a pilot we know they will have reached a minimium standard. With a yacht skipper there is no minimium standard. So with the pilot we might subsequently be right to comment that the pilot's training should have enabled him to cope with a particular situation. With a yacht skipper we do not have that luxury. Of course there will be those who say well he had no business to be out in those conditions anyway. While that may be say, we each make mistakes of judgement or dont have all the information to hand when it comes to being caught out by the weather. Maybe, just maybe, this was the case. We dont know.
How often have we heard CH16 suggest deploying an anchor. There is a simple reason that however stupidly, even good skippers can forget to do so while obsessed about drifting on to a shore.
In this case perhaps just having a large ship to provide some shelter and collect his wits may have made the difference - so good on him.
I am rather of the school that the only time to feel guilty about a Pan or Mayday is when you place others at risk and doing so is unwarranted relevant to your situation. An extreme example might be I am coping fine but woudnt mind having someone else on board to sort things out for me because it is an effort to do so myself. However, even then, I see no harm in making the call proportionate. In other words I dont require immediate assistance but I am letting you know the situation might get worse because of x, and feel it would be helpful to let you know my predicament before it does.
There is a whole and interesting debate when a Pan, or Mayday is required. In this case I think there are many experienced skippers who would have been of the view this is all jolly unpleasant, but it is resolvable, I am in no immediate danger, I dont need to abandon the yacht (as it would seem he subsequently did) and a bottle of whisky down below will do the job. For others not so.
As ever, making judgements from a video can be an even more dangerous game. Speculation is always useful, but whether his call was warranted or not, we do not know. All we can say, is from what we can see, there doesnt appear to be any immediate threat, but there is every chance the skipper was having a pretty rotten time of it.
In aviation pilot's "do" a full module well titled "human factors". It is useful, not just to aviation, but to life in general.
As I commented earlier, human factors play a huge part, and they arent the same for everyone.
Someone who has seen a particular set of conditions numerous times before, or particular events, is far more likely to cope. There are many other factors that come to play, that determine how well we will each cope.
I have every symphathy for this debate. Whatever the video shows, or doesnt, regarding the conditons, on the face of it the yacht doesnt appear in immediate danger, and the sole crew member appears in good health and able to move around as easily at any rate as the conditions would allow. If the conditions abated further, there is every chance that he could resolve the situation without immediate threat to himself or the yacht.
Of course we dont know how he was personally coping, and this is were human factors become so important, which was my earlier point.
To put out a distress simply because it is windy would seem unwarranted, to put out a distress because there is an immediate threat, perceived or otherwise, would seem rational. Second, judging what was rational for one person and not for another, is a dangerous game.
To revert to aviation, even for a trained pilot, an engine failure in a twin engined aircraft, for some might warrant a distress, for some a Pan and for some a Mayday. I doubt there is a correct answer as it depends on many factors, and for a pilot who has no reason to believe it might result in the second engine failing, but has for whatever reason managed to scare himself silly, it would be a prudent call because it is more likely to come to a happy ending with some help. The same is true of a skipper. The point at which you are totally stressed and the rational grey matter is shutting down is a good point to at least put out a Pan, especially if you are on your own, because every bit of help might just make the difference. More to the point, unlike with even amateur aviation, we arent dealing with professionals. There is no standard by which to judge. At least with a pilot we know they will have reached a minimium standard. With a yacht skipper there is no minimium standard. So with the pilot we might subsequently be right to comment that the pilot's training should have enabled him to cope with a particular situation. With a yacht skipper we do not have that luxury. Of course there will be those who say well he had no business to be out in those conditions anyway. While that may be say, we each make mistakes of judgement or dont have all the information to hand when it comes to being caught out by the weather. Maybe, just maybe, this was the case. We dont know.
How often have we heard CH16 suggest deploying an anchor. There is a simple reason that however stupidly, even good skippers can forget to do so while obsessed about drifting on to a shore.
In this case perhaps just having a large ship to provide some shelter and collect his wits may have made the difference - so good on him.
I am rather of the school that the only time to feel guilty about a Pan or Mayday is when you place others at risk and doing so is unwarranted relevant to your situation. An extreme example might be I am coping fine but woudnt mind having someone else on board to sort things out for me because it is an effort to do so myself. However, even then, I see no harm in making the call proportionate. In other words I dont require immediate assistance but I am letting you know the situation might get worse because of x, and feel it would be helpful to let you know my predicament before it does.
There is a whole and interesting debate when a Pan, or Mayday is required. In this case I think there are many experienced skippers who would have been of the view this is all jolly unpleasant, but it is resolvable, I am in no immediate danger, I dont need to abandon the yacht (as it would seem he subsequently did) and a bottle of whisky down below will do the job
. For others not so.As ever, making judgements from a video can be an even more dangerous game. Speculation is always useful, but whether his call was warranted or not, we do not know. All we can say, is from what we can see, there doesnt appear to be any immediate threat, but there is every chance the skipper was having a pretty rotten time of it.
Seajet
...
I grew up with and have largely spent my working life in aviation, from a military aircraft background - with civilians, Hawkers/BAe - as a technical photographer, when flying often in civilain aircraft like the DH 104 Dove and Piper PA-44 Seminole, on the odd occasion in company demonstrator G-Hawk - usually flying with Test Pilots.
They were still fallible despite being brilliant, as I'm sorry to say Jim Hawkins proved in the first Hawk 200 prototype ZG200.
As a relative outsider I didn't personally like his brutal style when he flew the Seminole, I don't think the other pilot did either but was too polite to make much of it.
I was told of a Wart On pilot who was just silly ( Jim was anything but that, there was talk of G-LOC but a close friend in avionics says his breathing and heart rate were normal as expected trying to pull out ) - the Wart On guy was warned by others he was pushing his luck too far, next day stuffed it into the ground.
Sailors can be graded to an extent; rather than CPL there's Yachtmaster Offshore ( though there's room for a lot of variation, I'm proud to have mine due to the school, instructors and Battle Of River Plate HMS Exeter veteran examiner, but there are some schools dishing out tickets like wet wipes ) - and I think it fair to say ' Master Mariner ' as a friend is, pretty much equates to ATPL.
I've been with non - Dunsfold ex Lightning pilots and mentioned just before takeoff ( before then would be seen as nervous / smartarse but I couldn't leave it any longer ) ' aren't we supposed to have THREE greens ' ?
I've found sailors and pilots vary wildly no matter how qualified, I'd count myself lucky if I'm in the middle.
They were still fallible despite being brilliant, as I'm sorry to say Jim Hawkins proved in the first Hawk 200 prototype ZG200.
As a relative outsider I didn't personally like his brutal style when he flew the Seminole, I don't think the other pilot did either but was too polite to make much of it.
I was told of a Wart On pilot who was just silly ( Jim was anything but that, there was talk of G-LOC but a close friend in avionics says his breathing and heart rate were normal as expected trying to pull out ) - the Wart On guy was warned by others he was pushing his luck too far, next day stuffed it into the ground.
Sailors can be graded to an extent; rather than CPL there's Yachtmaster Offshore ( though there's room for a lot of variation, I'm proud to have mine due to the school, instructors and Battle Of River Plate HMS Exeter veteran examiner, but there are some schools dishing out tickets like wet wipes ) - and I think it fair to say ' Master Mariner ' as a friend is, pretty much equates to ATPL.
I've been with non - Dunsfold ex Lightning pilots and mentioned just before takeoff ( before then would be seen as nervous / smartarse but I couldn't leave it any longer ) ' aren't we supposed to have THREE greens ' ?
I've found sailors and pilots vary wildly no matter how qualified, I'd count myself lucky if I'm in the middle.
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ip485
Well-Known Member
Seajet
An interesting life!
I agree it is indeed the case that qualifications can mean very little.
With pilots you can often tell how they will be before they even take off, with skippers I find that less to be the case, but still a reasonable indication.
The first trick is confidence. My boat is 55 feet and as yachts go it will often make skippers nervous because it seems reasonably large. The fact of the matter is it isnt, and approached confidently most skippers are quick to be settled. In reality there is a lot less going on in even a big yacht from a need to know point of view, but, in aircraft you need to have a much more comprehensive grasp of all the systems from the off. Strangely in todays modern yachts there is far more technology than in an aircraft. The trouble with yachts (as this video demonstrates) is that when things go wrong you may need to fix them, whereas in aircraft there is never really anything to fix, you can switch a few switches and run a few checklists and hope that sorts it out, but there is no equivalent of a pitching deck and a stuck mainsail.
To be fair to those who have contributed my last "event" was a jammed mainsail in a F7 at 5 am in January. Fortunately with three fit young men. It still wasnt a whole lot of fun, but as ever, keeping a cool head, and working th eproblem slowly usually brings good results. In aviation they say stop assess, think, then act, nothing usually happens really quickly contrary to what people expect. I think the same is even more true of sailing.
Thanks for an interesting post.
An interesting life!
I agree it is indeed the case that qualifications can mean very little.
With pilots you can often tell how they will be before they even take off, with skippers I find that less to be the case, but still a reasonable indication.
The first trick is confidence. My boat is 55 feet and as yachts go it will often make skippers nervous because it seems reasonably large. The fact of the matter is it isnt, and approached confidently most skippers are quick to be settled. In reality there is a lot less going on in even a big yacht from a need to know point of view, but, in aircraft you need to have a much more comprehensive grasp of all the systems from the off. Strangely in todays modern yachts there is far more technology than in an aircraft. The trouble with yachts (as this video demonstrates) is that when things go wrong you may need to fix them, whereas in aircraft there is never really anything to fix, you can switch a few switches and run a few checklists and hope that sorts it out, but there is no equivalent of a pitching deck and a stuck mainsail.
To be fair to those who have contributed my last "event" was a jammed mainsail in a F7 at 5 am in January. Fortunately with three fit young men. It still wasnt a whole lot of fun, but as ever, keeping a cool head, and working th eproblem slowly usually brings good results. In aviation they say stop assess, think, then act, nothing usually happens really quickly contrary to what people expect. I think the same is even more true of sailing.
Thanks for an interesting post.
Seajet
...
ip485,
ta for your kind comments, I was very lucky to fall into that job; funnily enough I never had a frightening moment when flying - and I was with the very best so why should I - but photo's on the ground for ' works engineering ' looking after the buildings ( familiar if you ever watch ' Top Gear ' were a different matter, they nearly killed me several times ranging from winding in the stabilisers on a cherry picker when I was at full height and reach, to lowering me into an underground fuel tank " oh ignore the oxymeter alarm, it always does that ! " - very much a matter of attitudes.
One of my sailing favourites was on my YMO course, a chap from another planet was doing CC; he mentioned " we chartered a boat from Bucklers Hard once, the instruments were perfectly calibrated; we watched the depth reading going down, and just when it said zero we hit the bottom ! "
There was an RN navigator ( doing Dazed Kipper, now in command of a Type 45 ) behind him - If I'd managed a photo of the look on his face I'd never have to work again.
ta for your kind comments, I was very lucky to fall into that job; funnily enough I never had a frightening moment when flying - and I was with the very best so why should I - but photo's on the ground for ' works engineering ' looking after the buildings ( familiar if you ever watch ' Top Gear ' were a different matter, they nearly killed me several times ranging from winding in the stabilisers on a cherry picker when I was at full height and reach, to lowering me into an underground fuel tank " oh ignore the oxymeter alarm, it always does that ! " - very much a matter of attitudes.
One of my sailing favourites was on my YMO course, a chap from another planet was doing CC; he mentioned " we chartered a boat from Bucklers Hard once, the instruments were perfectly calibrated; we watched the depth reading going down, and just when it said zero we hit the bottom ! "
There was an RN navigator ( doing Dazed Kipper, now in command of a Type 45 ) behind him - If I'd managed a photo of the look on his face I'd never have to work again.
