What has happened to all the motorsailers?

[Rob_Webb]

This is kind of a follow-on to my earlier thread (confused about how to progress from a J42DS) but more specifically to ask "Why have practical, affordable motorsailers gone out of fashion?"

I have a lovely Jeanneau 42DS of my own but I spent the weekend on a friend's Salar 40 pictured below. It might not look like it but that's us sailing home in 25kts of snotty weather with pouring rain and 2m+ swell. And as you can see we were sitting in shorts & t-shirts enjoying a dry and warm passage able to control all the sails from inside. Admittedly, a modern production boat (similar to my own 42DS) slowly crept past us but was only doing about 0.5kts more and by comparison we could see them sitting in their open aft cockpit in heavy wet-weather gear getting cold and soaked.

And we call this progress?!

I realise that boats like the Salar are not to everyone's tastes and but surely the ability to stay warm, dry and comfortable never went out of fashion. And yes if you look carefully that is an external aft cockpit so yes you can even sail the boat from outside too if you like.

So why isn't there a modern equivalent of this? imagine a 40-45ft modern version of the Salar with all the ergonomic, performance and space benefits of modern yacht design plus the huge benefits of wheelhouse comfort? And at an affordable, production boat price point not expensive niche market semi-custom builds.

Surely there would be a market for such a boat especially for families? Not everyone sails in tropical or Med-like climates 365 days.

Or if I've missed the modern-day equivalent of the Salar 40 then someone please point me in the right direction as I'd be a serious buyer!

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Well, there are a few come to mind... couple of examples,
Moody 45DS
Nauticat 42

 

[Concerto]

Sirus 40
Sirius 40 DS – Sirius-Yachts
They also do smaller ones.

 

[ryanroberts]

Sirus' are seriousy expensive compared to most production boats I thought. Motorsailors seem pricier in general, see some eye watering prices for 40 year old Nauticat 33s

 

[Rob_Webb]

OK but from the pictures I can see I don't think any of these examples fully meet the brief. They all seem to offer outside steering positions that are very exposed or inside positions that are very limited i.e. you can't manage the sails. Whereas the old design of the Salar 40 provide both shelter and the ability to control sails at the same time.

Or am I missing something?

 

[Rappey]

These vessels are long keeled giving a very smooth ride and great balance and directional stability.
Today's sailors want performance, easy to manage light boats.

There were 2 similar vessels on the scrubbing grid today. Still a fair few around.

 

[Rob_Webb]

These vessels are long keeled giving a very smooth ride and great balance and directional stability.
Today's sailors want performance, easy to manage light boats.

There were 2 similar vessels on the scrubbing grid today. Still a fair few around.

OK so why not both i.e. combine modern hull design, performance and spacious interior with the concept of a centre cockpit and wheelhouse protection?

The closest design I can think of is Amel but they fail on size and price (both too big for me)!

 

[Laminar Flow]

The Moody 41 DS will provide most of what you are looking for as will the crazily expensive Sirius and any of the equally dear "expedition style" boats.

The main marketing stick these days is "performance" even though in real life the differences are virtually immaterial in cruising terms. I remember reading one commentary on the Moody DS 45 about how one would have to make some (noticeable) concessions in performance due to the wheelhouse/decksalon.

Most promotional literature for cruising boats feature palm trees, bikinis, sun-lit azure seas and decoratively barren and austere interiors, none of which reflect the realities of cruising and definitely not in Northern climes.

We live in a wet climate and many cruising boats here opt for a complete canvas and perspex cockpit enclosure. My brother's 27 footer has one, as tall and large as a medium sized greenhouse (his wife loves it). The same people whose boats sport these contraptions will tell you and in all earnesty that a proper wheelhouse will seriously impact windward performance. The truth is that a large majority of cruisers motor to windward.

If you are willing to make some insignificant sacrifices in performance, there are plenty of older and perfectly serviceable designs available that will provide all the comfort and practicality you are looking for. No matter what you may need to spend to upgrade them, the outlay will still be considerably less than any of the more modern varieties.

 

[Bobc]

AMEL

 

[Lucy52]

Southerly, The Yacht Market will bring up hundreds of posabilities fron tens to hundreds of thousands of pounds. Not all still made though.

 

[Rob_Webb]

AMEL

Yes they are close! But like I said in my last post I’ve ruled out Amel because too big (over 50ft), too expensive and mostly only 2 cabins whereas I want 3.

 

[Rob_Webb]

Southerly, The Yacht Market will bring up hundreds of posabilities fron tens to hundreds of thousands of pounds. Not all still made though.

Southerly are lovely looking boats but seem to have same problem as other modern pilothouse boats - outside helm position is fully exposed cockpit but inside helm station has no access to sails?

So there still doesn’t actually appear to be a simple modern equivalent to the Salar - which offers both protection and access to sails.

Could this be a gap in the market?

 

[Bobc]

Could this be a gap in the market?

I you've got £10m to burn, then maybe

 

[Bobc]

I suspect you're most likely to find what you're looking for in the Scandics

 

[AntarcticPilot]

May not at least part of the problem with providing sail controls from the sheltered wheelhouse be to do with RCD classifications? In order to allow access to sheets and halliards, presumably there are passages into the wheelhouse to bring them into the sheltered area. Wouldn't such access allow water to flood the wheelhouse in the event of a knockdown or breaking sea? I gather that many of the motor sailers such as the Fisher and older Nauticats would not be rated for ocean work because of the way the wheelhouse doors work; a deliberate entry into the wheelhouse for access to sheets etc. would presumably impact the RCD rating in the same way.

Of course, everyone knows that Fishers and Nauticats are very safe, seaworthy boats! But the RCD regulations weren't framed with that type of boat in mind.

 

[dunedin]

I think one factor is that with much better weather forecasts, many of us want a boat that is enjoyable to SAIL in 5-20 knots of wind. This tends to mean a more efficient (aka higher performance) boat and rig to avoid motoring in 5-10 knots breeze, and to make best progress in most winds we actually choose to sail in.
Heavy motor sailors that are at their best in 25 knots plus, and need to motor upwind are not very appealing to many nowadays, as often tend to do other things on days when wind forecast to be strong on the nose.

PS Doesn’t mean there aren’t some highly appealing Pilot house boats that have decent performance - Sirius (complete with carbon mast etc), Bestevar, Farr 50DS etc, but these tend to be expensive

 

[JumbleDuck]

This is kind of a follow-on to my earlier thread (confused about how to progress from a J42DS) but more specifically to ask "Why have practical, affordable motorsailers gone out of fashion?"

It seems to me that there were/are two reasons to buy a motorsailer: motoring performance and deckhouse comfort. As far as motoring performance goes, every bog standard sailing boat now has a big enough engine to use in all conditions. As far as comfort goes, modern high volume designs have so much space below that there is no need for a deckhouse, which is therefore only bonus in bad conditions at sea - when most people are nowadays snugly tucked up in marinas.

The impression I get is that as I head north on the west coat, I see more and more traditional motorsailers, perhaps because there are so few marinas that people do expect to be out at sea when it's raining. I'd love to have one myself, as I dream of travelling around in my shirt sleeves, mug of cocoa to hand, watching the windscreen wipers work. Maybe an LM27. I'm only in my mid 50s and so about twenty years too young for a Nauticat.

 

[Robih]

We have sailed our Nauticat now for sixteen years, since 2004, must have been 42 years of age at purchase by my reckoning. I couldn‘t give a monkey‘s stuff about whatever anyone thinks about me looking like an old git because I sail a Nauticat. I can’t believe anyone would seriously care, if they do then I fear for their character.

Be aware that there are two types of Nauticat - the motor sailers and the pilot house yachts. The Motor sailers are rated RCD B because of the sliding doors. The pilot house yachts are RCD A.

My N39 can be sailed from the pilot house if the weather is inclement. It has been a superb boat to cruise West Scotland.

 

[RupertW]

I love the idea of a true pilot house yacht and a bigger Fisher has always appealed but only if my cruising ground was somewhere truly cold, like the Solent.

A decade ago I made the decision that it was warm waters for me, so almost all boats from the last 25 years are really designed for the charter market with private sales a bonus. Therefore my boxes were ticked - white hull, no teak, lots of opening ports, walkthrough stern, at least 2 heads and as many private cabins as possible for either guests or big unobtrusive storage, and the living space centred around the cockpit. The only difficulty was most boats like the one I bought have a table for 8 with sofas all around it ( out of the main passageway) but that’s a huge waste of real estate as we almost never eat an evening meal downstairs.

So the motorsailor market is really for those who are experienced enough to know what works in a cold climate but who haven’t used that experience to run a thousand miles south so they never need one. That’s not a big market.

 

[TLouth7]

It sounds to me that you don't really want a motor sailer, you want a true sailing yacht with an enclosed cockpit. I think some bloke called Alex Thompson has had a very nice example built for him, though you might find the accommodations a little sparse, and the price a little rich.

I'd have thought that it wouldn't be too hard or even expensive to commission somebody to put hard dodger plus rigid bimini over a conventional centre cockpit, giving you exactly what you want.