Twin Electric! Salona Yachts

[dunedin]

If you’re exploring the maths it’s not for you, you’ve probably already made your mind up and the maths justifies that for you.

Nonsense! I have been following a number of these alternative propulsion examples over the past couple of years, and investigating in a bit more depth. And as I said, I believe electric / hybrid propulsion is definitely the future direction.

Somebody who leaps down this expensive route without doing the maths is a dreamer.

 

[geem]

Nonsense! I have been following a number of these alternative propulsion examples over the past couple of years, and investigating in a bit more depth. And as I said, I believe electric / hybrid propulsion is definitely the future direction.

Somebody who leaps down this expensive route without doing the maths is a dreamer.

Agreed. I particularly like the hybrid option. This was one of the options a friend looked at in detail for a catamaran project. Electric drive, lithium batteries and a centrally mounted genset that could be run continuously if the batteries were discharged to drive the electric motors. In the end cost was an issue and he reverted to diesel engines concluding that the technology wasn't sufficiently advanced yet and as an early adaptor he was paying a premium.
I am looking to install a lithium battery in conjunction with my lead batteries as I think this is an excellent option

 

[Ningaloo]

I am fascinated by all the comments here.
I started looking at the Watt&Sea hydrogenerators when a second-hand boat I was interested in had one. The amount of power they can produce is staggering. Solar is great and I think I will just about be capable of balancing my needs with a 310W fixed panel and maybe another 200W roving, but they don't help on passages when 50% of the time they won't give anything (because it's night).
We all know how inefficient our lead-acid batteries are: so heavy and we can only use half their capacity without destroying their life. So better battery technology, allowing you to put several times the usable capacity into the same space with less weight is clearly good and we already have it with LiPo, but currently at an excessive cost. Thankfully the entire global automotive production is switching to battery technology so there should be considerable cost reductions as these become mainstream (and remember that in the UK you won't be able to but a new ICE powered car in 9 years time).
So put better battery technology together with hydrogen and you solve so much, and once you have the batteries, why not get rid of the large noisy motor?

It's interesting that Uma says that this might not be appropriate for day sailors or racers who go back into a marina every night but that it is a perfect match (in their opinion) for long distance cruising - rather the opposite of what several forumites are saying. I get that if you are spending multiple weeks on the same mooring/anchorage it may not fit but these systems will power the boat for a week without a worry. As a cruising summer liveaboard I only stay in the same place that long if the weather won't allow me to move.

As for maintenance, if you go for two smaller motors as in the Salona you have some redundancy.

I've probably bought my last boat so this isn't for me but I really do see the appeal. And I think I will at least give the ePropulsion EVO a try-out. If that gives me 200W whilst sailing it solves a big part of my overnight on-passage needs.

 

[geem]

I am fascinated by all the comments here.
I started looking at the Watt&Sea hydrogenerators when a second-hand boat I was interested in had one. The amount of power they can produce is staggering. Solar is great and I think I will just about be capable of balancing my needs with a 310W fixed panel and maybe another 200W roving, but they don't help on passages when 50% of the time they won't give anything (because it's night).
We all know how inefficient our lead-acid batteries are: so heavy and we can only use half their capacity without destroying their life. So better battery technology, allowing you to put several times the usable capacity into the same space with less weight is clearly good and we already have it with LiPo, but currently at an excessive cost. Thankfully the entire global automotive production is switching to battery technology so there should be considerable cost reductions as these become mainstream (and remember that in the UK you won't be able to but a new ICE powered car in 9 years time).
So put better battery technology together with hydrogen and you solve so much, and once you have the batteries, why not get rid of the large noisy motor?

It's interesting that Uma says that this might not be appropriate for day sailors or racers who go back into a marina every night but that it is a perfect match (in their opinion) for long distance cruising - rather the opposite of what several forumites are saying. I get that if you are spending multiple weeks on the same mooring/anchorage it may not fit but these systems will power the boat for a week without a worry. As a cruising summer liveaboard I only stay in the same place that long if the weather won't allow me to move.

As for maintenance, if you go for two smaller motors as in the Salona you have some redundancy.

I've probably bought my last boat so this isn't for me but I really do see the appeal. And I think I will at least give the ePropulsion EVO a try-out. If that gives me 200W whilst sailing it solves a big part of my overnight on-passage needs.

We have been using a Duogen since 2004. In water mode it runs our boat at night. During the day it is supplemented by solar. On a good trip the Duogen puts in 200amps per day. No need to run the engine for charging

 

[lustyd]

Hybrid used to be trendy in cars but that died a death pretty quickly and it turns out many didn’t use the electric much at all. As soon as Tesla showed what could be done pure electric took over. I think the same will happen here. It may not be this yacht but I don’t think we’re far off of weekend sailors having truly viable electric options.

 

[dunedin]

Agreed. I particularly like the hybrid option. This was one of the options a friend looked at in detail for a catamaran project. Electric drive, lithium batteries and a centrally mounted genset that could be run continuously if the batteries were discharged to drive the electric motors. In the end cost was an issue and he reverted to diesel engines concluding that the technology wasn't sufficiently advanced yet and as an early adaptor he was paying a premium.
I am looking to install a lithium battery in conjunction with my lead batteries as I think this is an excellent option

Makes sense, particularly for cats - as their speed under sail makes regen efficient. Quite a few high end cat builders are starting to offer something like this as a new build option (for those with budget to spend).
As you say still a major cost premium, but less so in a dedicated new build blue water cat - which would typically need 2 engines, diesel generator and two water generators.

 

[dunedin]

Hybrid used to be trendy in cars but that died a death pretty quickly and it turns out many didn’t use the electric much at all. As soon as Tesla showed what could be done pure electric took over. I think the same will happen here. It may not be this yacht but I don’t think we’re far off of weekend sailors having truly viable electric options.

Cars are much closer to electric recharge points than many coastal and blue water boats.

BEV is definitely the route for an inland waterways craft. And, if budget not an issue, electric definitely a solution for marina based day sailing boats - plenty now on the market to buy new.
Ditto as I said, I think a niche now for a charter company to get a fleet of BEV yachts for a med charter fleet.

 

[lustyd]

Inland it might make sense but I think for coastal cruising in most locations pure electric will win pretty quickly

 

[dunedin]

I am fascinated by all the comments here.
I started looking at the Watt&Sea hydrogenerators when a second-hand boat I was interested in had one. The amount of power they can produce is staggering. ........

.......
I've probably bought my last boat so this isn't for me but I really do see the appeal. And I think I will at least give the ePropulsion EVO a try-out. If that gives me 200W whilst sailing it solves a big part of my overnight on-passage needs.

Yes Watt&Sea pretty much standard fitment I suspect these days for blue water use. Though when we did the ARC even averaging 7-8 knots it still needed an occasional run of the diesel generator for luxuries (heating water for daily hot showers etc). And stern based ones had problems with Saragossa weed (see earlier comment about poor shape of drive pods on this Salona).
Not cheap, hence why a new build blue water boat probably should consider a hybrid propulsion route from the start.

The ePropulsion EVO looks interesting. But everything I have seen suggests you need different propeller geometry for drive and for generation. People are working in variable geometry props. But Elcano apparently ended up with different props on each hull, one optimised for drive, one for generation - which was a bit of a late compromise, and probably only works when sailing predominantly on one tack. Even then they aborted the voyage as regen was not as good as tests in flat water had led them to expect.
Hence to be effective, I suspect the EVO would need to have a fast removable prop, and swap that wee 2 blader for a different generating prop with more blades and different shape. Removable prop should be achievable on a small outboard tbough.

 

[geem]

Makes sense, particularly for cats - as their speed under sail makes regen efficient. Quite a few high end cat builders are starting to offer something like this as a new build option (for those with budget to spend).
As you say still a major cost premium, but less so in a dedicated new build blue water cat - which would typically need 2 engines, diesel generator and two water generators.

With a big cat its easy to have 2000/2500w of solar. Friends have this set up on high performance 56ft cat. They simply dont need hydro. Their lead acid battery bank gets them through the night on passage and the solar easily charges the bank back up even without much sun. Its a simple and reliable system. Their high capacity water maker runs from one of the yanmar engines and they have large water tanks. They have no generator and simply dont need it. I like their simple system.
It seems to me that is easy to over think these things and end up with very complicated systems that in the real world don't provide an advantage

 

[Rappey]

It seems lithium can be had cheap enough nowadays to make it cheaper in £per kw compared to a lead acid.
Seems you can't get 50% of your available lead acid power .
Very interesting video !

 

[geem]

It seems lithium can be had cheap enough nowadays to make it cheaper in £per kw compared to a lead acid.
Seems you can't get 50% of your available lead acid power .
Very interesting video !

Thats not really accurate. You can find loads of articles saying lithium can be taken down to zero with no damage. Its not correct. If you take lithium down below 20% SOC on a regular basis you reduce the life. Its not as bad as doing this to lead but it isn't accurate to say you only need half the capacity.
I had a look at the prices of lithium and lead. Assuming Trojans compared to good quality lithium from a reputable manufacturer lithium is still 3.5 times the cost not including the additional electronics you need as part of the conversion to lithium. Lithium batteries will be destroyed if you over charge them. One mistake with lithium and you need a new bank. Lead are more durable to mistakes. Over charge them a bit and they will survive. Under charge them a bit and they will survive. Once only bad charging event on lithium and game over. Don't believe the hype.
Having said that I will be adding a small amount of lithium to my Trojan bank in a hybrid scheme

 

[lustyd]

Very reputable cells can be had from many sources much cheaper than that. Sure if you want a drop in battery replacement you’ll pay for that. Once when buying and later again if any cell dies. That’s not a great way to do lithium so it’s worth getting up to speed with buying as cells and using battery controllers. This also has the advantage of being more flexible on space requirements.

 

[lustyd]

Nonsense! I have been following a number of these alternative propulsion examples over the past couple of years, and investigating in a bit more depth. And as I said, I believe electric / hybrid propulsion is definitely the future direction.

Somebody who leaps down this expensive route without doing the maths is a dreamer.

Sorry what I meant was that doing the maths usually means calculating mathematically why the new thing doesn’t measure up to the old thing. It implies that until you can store enough electric to be equivalent to 150L of diesel used in one sitting that it isn’t good enough. That’s clearly not the case since most of us don’t use that in a season. I use under a litre most trips I’d imagine, and certainly could get by with a litre on the way out if I could create another while I was out. If this boat can motor for 10 hours, which I believe it can, that would get me back from the last leg of most coastal trips. Cost isn’t the issue here, that will certainly drop and is currently set for early adopters with deep pockets. California and Puget Sound are chock full of those believe me, so give it 3-5 years and we should see prices similar to a diesel if not cheaper as battery production ramps up.

 

[Rappey]

Oops. Forgot to add the video to my previous post.

 

[geem]

Very reputable cells can be had from many sources much cheaper than that. Sure if you want a drop in battery replacement you’ll pay for that. Once when buying and later again if any cell dies. That’s not a great way to do lithium so it’s worth getting up to speed with buying as cells and using battery controllers. This also has the advantage of being more flexible on space requirements.

You assume I am not up to speed with this technology. You are wrong. The advise from the most knowledgable guys in this business at the moment is buy from a reputable manufacturer. There are lots of second quality batteries about using grade 2 cells. You pay your money and take your pick. I am comparing quality lead with quality lithium.

 

[lustyd]

If you don't want to give the impression you're not up to speed stop saying things that are demonstrably incorrect and out of date. You might have been correct 5 years ago, but right now you're not and it's making you look biased and out of touch.

I could make lead acid look extremely expensive if I decided to design a system with poor component choices too.

 

[geem]

If you don't want to give the impression you're not up to speed stop saying things that are demonstrably incorrect and out of date. You might have been correct 5 years ago, but right now you're not and it's making you look biased and out of touch.

I could make lead acid look extremely expensive if I decided to design a system with poor component choices too.

You speak a lot but show no evidence for your statements. Show your evidence then maybe what you say might be more believable. I am pricing on current day costs

 

[dunedin]

If you don't want to give the impression you're not up to speed stop saying things that are demonstrably incorrect and out of date. You might have been correct 5 years ago, but right now you're not and it's making you look biased and out of touch.

I could make lead acid look extremely expensive if I decided to design a system with poor component choices too.

As we are on the YM Forum, let’s use some figures from an excellent and recent Yachting Monthly article - cost per usable Ah (ie after allowing for deeper discharge capability of Lithium)
- Flooded Lead Acid - £2.68 / Ah u
- AGM - £3.13 - £7.50 / Ah u
- Lithium Ion - £9.00 - £16.49 / Ah u

So Lithium still much more expensive per usable Ah - and probably need to change quite a bit of electrical management systems to get best use of them.
But if doing new build or major upgrade to whole system, and prepared to put money in up front for hopefully longer lifespan, then can start to make long term sense over 10 years or so.

PS. Interesting “a but“ about Lithium in a recent RIN paper - apparently Lithium battery management systems can sometimes shut off the batteries entirely to protect the batteries. Fine by the roadside, but perhaps inconvenient mid ocean. Not sure this has happened much, but AGM simpler technology and will degrade but not go off with a bang.

 

[lustyd]

You speak a lot but show no evidence for your statements. Show your evidence then maybe what you say might be more believable. I am pricing on current day costs

There have been various links throughout this thread which you're choosing to ignore. There's little point in my putting in more work for you to continue ignoring, so I'm not going to bother. As I said earlier, nobody is forcing you to change, and you're clearly unwilling to do so, so we're all happy with the outcome. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯