Twin Electric! Salona Yachts

[Neeves]

Simply pondering.

Hydro generation is the way to go to produce power, electricity, and it works at night (whereas solar apparently would struggle .

Hydrogeneration is pretty old tech and should be pretty efficient.

Electric motors, converted to drive yachts, don't seem very complex (correct me if I'm wrong) so an electric drive should be pretty old tech.

The trick now is to sell a combination of the two.

Would it be better, cheaper, to use old tech, independent propulsion and generation rather than (what seems to be inordinately) an expensive combination.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

I think Geem has some valid point and one he has not mentioned. He and I are going to meet up in 115 years time and compare notes (I've put it in my diary ).

At the size and monies the yacht should be capable of world girdling - though many yachts I see of that size are simply floating weekend cottages (nothing wrong with that).

But if you were world girdling and got to the Azores, Valparaiso, Suva etc and something went wrong with the drive - if it were any diesel then any mechanic would sort it out, as most diesels are 'simply' converted pieces of agricultural equipment thus servicing is easy. How easy is it to service the drive and associated electrickery.

Jonathan

 

[lustyd]

If you were living off the hook for a few weeks you will still need the Solar installation. You need some way of putting back fridge/freezer loads, lighting etc. Who in their right mind would pay an additional £70k for a system with less flexibility unless you don't really go anywhere? It would be fine for day sailing and back to the marina at night.
Based on a season use of fuel at about 500 litres per season the £70k buys me 115 years of diesel??

As mentioned it’s a boat for people who sail. Go for a day sail and you’re golden. You see less flexibility because you’re steadfastly ignoring the advantages. You’re stuck in your ways and that’s fine, this is for the next generation.
How much will you pay for filters, belts, oil, tools, impellers, coolant, antifreeze etc. In that period? You’ll need at least 4 engine changes too which won’t be cheap.

I think Geem has some valid point and one he has not mentioned. He and I are going to meet up in 115 years time and compare notes (I've put it in my diary ).

At the size and monies the yacht should be capable of world girdling - though many yachts I see of that size are simply floating weekend cottages (nothing wrong with that).

But if you were world girdling and got to the Azores, Valparaiso, Suva etc and something went wrong with the drive - if it were any diesel then any mechanic would sort it out, as most diesels are 'simply' converted pieces of agricultural equipment thus servicing is easy. How easy is it to service the drive and associated electrickery.

Jonathan

It is capable of world girdling. If you’re unhappy with that stick with your diesel. Nobody is forcing this on you I promise, you’re quite safe. Electric motors generally don’t need the amount of maintenance diesels do, so it’s very probably worth the risk. When Uma had an issue Oceanvolt flew out and fixed it for them. I don’t know if that’s standard but given the price it might well be. They are keen to understand failures in order to improve the products. The ones on this yacht are much better than those a few years ago

 

[Stemar]

For my trip round the world on a boat like that, I wouldn't mind all the electrickery, but I'd want a way to bypass the electronics. Being immobilised by a dry solder joint or a failed capacitor on a remote Pacific island isn't my idea of fun. OTOH, if you spend that sort of money on a diesel powered boat, I'd guess that the engine would have rather more electronics to go wrong than my faithful old 2003, so is there really that much difference?

 

[Frogmogman]

Why on earth was the battery bank under the saloon steps. They have a whacking great keel within which , with some forethought, the batteries could have been contained. Hollow steel keels are not uncommon, some are used to store water, some fuel - why not the batteries.

I’m sure that as this technology develops, that is something that will happen, saving money on the cost of ballast, and eliminating the extra weight from having the batteries in the hull. It will need suitable batteries to be developed to fit the required shape.

 

[Neeves]

Lustyd - don't be too sensitive.

Its a great idea and I see the advantages. Its early days and the systems will get better, much better. But I think it unrealistic, especially with current restrictions, to expect Ocean volt to fly to every corner of the globe too fix issues - the fact Uma had an issue would be a worry that needs some really good PR. I also think it healthy that people are questioning and expressing doubts on aspects (or the whole concept) because if they are expressed here they are probably common doubts and questions that all need addressing.

I have doubts of electric cars in Australia - its 800km from Sydney to Brisbane (or if you think that's a bit extreme its 200km from Sydney to the next city, Newcastle) - electric cars are an expensive joke (except to tootle around Sydney). Cars, of course , don't have an alternative power source (sails) but its the same, or a similar, issue

You can short across the starter motor with a screwdriver on the latest Volvo motors - which simply 'cuts out' the troublesome Volvo electrickery. Basically the new Volvos are old tech with a bit of trickery bolted on the side. The Oceanvolts might be more difficult if you were anchored at the snout of a Patagonian glacier.

I'm all for the concept - but I'd wait for the next generation of developments. Call me a wimp - or simply reverting to my presbyterian Scots roots.


And Lustyd - thank you for posting, very much appreciated. If you had not posted I would not have looked at the vid.

Jonathan

 

[dunedin]

What I find interesting is the use of 2 engines with 2 props. Does that mean you can use 1 engine for propulsion and use the other one for regeneration? (I do understand that you would go slower). This would increase your range drastically!

I think we are getting into the realms of the fabled “perpetual motion engine“ here!
Clearly the drag from regeneration would put more strain on the drive and hence more drain from the battery, with massive inefficiency losses.

No the reasons for the twin motors are rather more prosaic, I think:
(a) there are very few high power electric sail drives available yet - banging in two gives the power needed for a 46 foot boat to achieve hull speed under motor without waiting for larger drives to be put in production.
(b) the extra immersion of the leeward drive will help in generation mode.

Looking at the photos out of the water, I suspect these electric sail drives will work fine on the centreline of a monohull, or the centreline of two cat hulls. But the shape will catch weed (or worse, harder stuff) badly, much more than a centreline drive or even twin rudders, which tend to have tips angled backwards.

 

[lustyd]

I’m not being sensitive, just amazed by the “if it won’t work for everyone it’s no good for anyone” attitudes here. We saw the same with electric cars in the early days with people set in their ways trashing the technology. Now we have petrolheads extolling the virtues of all that torque. As you rightly said electric isn’t the primary propulsion system here, and the sails replenish the batteries so you have a “full tank” when you need one at both ends of the sail.

 

[dunedin]

Any thread or analysis of electric propulsion boats needs to contain the maths to be meaningful. The maths about
(a) the engine drive power - many, unlike this Salona, are very marginal and would struggle into a stiff headwind, let alone get out of a lee anchorage in a gale
(b) the battery capacity and energy equivalent - I have not found details yet of what the actual battery size you get for your extra £70k, but a rough comparison is 3kWh has the nett energy of 1 litre of diesel. (10kWh has gross energy of 1 litre of diesel)
(c) the economics - certainly a still a huge cost premium for a short range.

Some of the examples people lob in as throwaway quotes are quite shocking when you explore the maths - think some of the famous ones can only go 10-20 miles at around 3-4 knots - in flat calm, no waves and no adverse tide. As many / most seem to want to bash upwind at 6 knots against the waves, and round tidal headlands, they might get a range of a couple of miles.
The tiny practical range of the super expensive Spirit 44e tested in YM recently is another example.

Elcano was super expensive also, but didn’t seem to include the very ambitious electric domestic demands in their maths. And the regeneration, in spite of special props, apparently didn’t work so well in real world waves.

Not saying they are all like that, but unless you quote the maths, at least (a), (b) & (c) above, then it is meaningless.

i do believe that electric drive units are the direction for the future. Clean, quiet, pollution feee (at the boat - NOT full lifecycle) for going in and out of harbour, and short trips. But personally I think for the foreseeable future it will be hybrid drives that offer most potential for most coastal and ocean cruising yachts:
- decently sized electric drives with power to spare for brief use, plus regeneration (NB. Complex variable geometry propellors will be needed, standard ones simply won’t cut it - ref Elecano experience)
- fuel cell or biofuel powered generator to provide power top up, and range under motor - it is amazing how far a yacht could go at 3-4 knots with an electric drive and a modest fuel cell or generator).

When Neeves and Co. meet up in 115 years time they will perhaps laugh at the concept of a hybrid electric yacht. But I strongly suspect if they meet up in 15 years time hybrid electric may be commonplace for new boats, and perhaps mandated by law.

But overall - regarding electric propulsion on boats, any statements (and press releases) without the figures and the maths are generally pointless.

PS. Salona make some lovely boats, and this looks like a good initiative - albeit I don‘t see many of these twin electric options actually being bought. BUT. When OceanVolt release a 40kw single sail drive, I could see some innovative charter company buying a fleet to sell environmentally friendly charter holidays. Absolutely perfect solution for harbour to harbour Med flotillas, plug in each night and much less mechanical stuff to maintain. That is when this will take off and the costs go down (and perhaps what Salona are aiming at).

 

[lustyd]

If you’re exploring the maths it’s not for you, you’ve probably already made your mind up and the maths justifies that for you. Range is funny because it’s fine in this yacht and taking a wider view is infinitely better than a diesel because it is in fact infinite. Diesel requires you to go and refill the tank now and then, and I’d wager more people have had problems running out of diesel than electric because people using electric are sailing until they get to their destination. That said, Uma can go 6 hours or so these days which is ample in my mind, but that’s far short of what a purpose built one will be capable of.
Im not sure why you want a single bigger motor, did you misunderstand the info in the video?

 

[geem]

As mentioned it’s a boat for people who sail. Go for a day sail and you’re golden. You see less flexibility because you’re steadfastly ignoring the advantages. You’re stuck in your ways and that’s fine, this is for the next generation.
How much will you pay for filters, belts, oil, tools, impellers, coolant, antifreeze etc. In that period? You’ll need at least 4 engine changes too which won’t be cheap.

It is capable of world girdling. If you’re unhappy with that stick with your diesel. Nobody is forcing this on you I promise, you’re quite safe. Electric motors generally don’t need the amount of maintenance diesels do, so it’s very probably worth the risk. When Uma had an issue Oceanvolt flew out and fixed it for them. I don’t know if that’s standard but given the price it might well be. They are keen to understand failures in order to improve the products. The ones on this yacht are much better than those a few years ago

Haha, I have done 27,000nm in the last six years. How much have you done. So tell me the advantages. I haven't seen any yet. It cost more, its less flexible. If hit by lighting all those electronics will be fried and you will have less chance of a temporary fix than a similar boat being hit with a diesel engine. How many battery changes do you expect in the period a diesel engine lasts in addition to initial horrendous cost of this system? Maintenance parts on a diesel are insignificant compared to the cost of the all electric boat. You will need new batteries at many thousands of pounds a pop. Oceanvolt flew out to fix the lecky boat cos it wouldnt have made a good sales video if the lecky boat was broken would it?

 

[lustyd]

You’ve been told the advantages several times and they were well explained in the video. I’m quite happy for you to carry on with your diesel, I’m confused why you’re putting so much energy into convincing the world not to move on, although once it does diesel and parts will begin to be harder to get.
You’ll need new batteries as well, so no real difference there. Yours will need replacing more regularly though due to the worse treatment they’re likely to get. You’ll also need engine rebuilds and replacements due to bad treatment of the engine such as running it at idle to charge your batteries as you don’t want regen. Parts are anything but insignificant over the life of an engine. Oil alone will run to thousands over the hundred year span you’re talking about, as will filters. You’ve almost certainly got several thousand pounds worth of tools related to your engine and I’d wager at least £500 in spares on board.
The boat they fixed was not the one in the sales video and neither was it recent ?

 

[Robih]

Lusty,

You are not being rational in your responses. I can see that you are an enthusiast for the technology and that’s great, no issue with that, but to say a diesel will be abused because of use for battery charging is ridiculous and you surely know that, because cruisers can use solar, wind and dedicated generators to recharge batteries. The debate is being devalued which makes it unreadable.

 

[geem]

You’ve been told the advantages several times and they were well explained in the video. I’m quite happy for you to carry on with your diesel, I’m confused why you’re putting so much energy into convincing the world not to move on, although once it does diesel and parts will begin to be harder to get.
You’ll need new batteries as well, so no real difference there. Yours will need replacing more regularly though due to the worse treatment they’re likely to get. You’ll also need engine rebuilds and replacements due to bad treatment of the engine such as running it at idle to charge your batteries as you don’t want regen. Parts are anything but insignificant over the life of an engine. Oil alone will run to thousands over the hundred year span you’re talking about, as will filters. You’ve almost certainly got several thousand pounds worth of tools related to your engine and I’d wager at least £500 in spares on board.
The boat they fixed was not the one in the sales video and neither was it recent ?

I think you have lost the plot. You are singing the praises of a system in its infancy. The technology isn't new but the component may have improved. Its a long way off replacing diesel engines in yachts. I quoted 115 years simply because that was the payback on the electric installation compared to running a diesel engine on fuel alone. My lead Trojan battery bank cost £600 and will last 5-8 years depending on the ambient temperatures it sees. Contrary to all the hype about Lithium, it to is also adversely affected by temperature. The difference is when my lead batteries fail I shell out another £600 and we are good to go for another few years. The cost of replacement lithium runs in to thousands. We know American cruisers who swapped to lithium for domestic use and have shelled out £10k. They arent even relying on it for propulsion.
My diesel does 500 hours between oil changes. For me that every two years. What other cost do you expect on a diesel engine?
Why on earth would I have several thousand pounds worth of tools related to my engine? What do you expect me to be doing? I do carry spares for just about everything. Engine spares amount to an alternator. £100. Two injectors and some filters and oil. They take up I tiny proportion of the spares locker. Give me a reliable diesel any day over a boat full of irreparable electronics. When are you splashing our for your electric boat?

 

[lustyd]

Lusty,

You are not being rational in your responses. I can see that you are an enthusiast for the technology and that’s great, no issue with that, but to say a diesel will be abused because of use for battery charging is ridiculous and you surely know that, because cruisers can use solar, wind and dedicated generators to recharge batteries. The debate is being devalued which makes it unreadable.

It's well documented in these forums that light use for things like charging will glaze the bores of a diesel, which leads to considerable maintenance. That's not losing the plot, it's being realistic about the current technology.

 

[lustyd]

The cost of replacement lithium runs in to thousands. We know American cruisers who swapped to lithium for domestic use and have shelled out £10k. They arent even relying on it for propulsion.

I assume that was a while ago as lithium batteries are considerably cheaper than that these days. Prices are dropping consistently as production ramps up for use in cars and homes so I would expect them to become cheaper than lead by the next replacement in 25 years time. Regardless, if you're replacing lead batteries every 5 years then your £600 becomes £3000 for the same life as lithium, which coincidentally is around what an equivelent or slightly larger lithium bank would cost right now. The Lithium would give you more usable power, however, as you can discharge them very deeply so you'd need half the capacity which would reduce costs considerably.

 

[Robih]

It's well documented in these forums that light use for things like charging will glaze the bores of a diesel, which leads to considerable maintenance. That's not losing the plot, it's being realistic about the current technology.

I did not say you were losing the plot.

 

[geem]

It's well documented in these forums that light use for things like charging will glaze the bores of a diesel, which leads to considerable maintenance. That's not losing the plot, it's being realistic about the current technology.

Thats not true. Bore glazing tends to occur in new engines that sit on idle. A properly run in engine tends not to suffer bore glazing. London taxis do 100s of thousands of miles and plenty of sitting on idle. The old Merc 2.5l diesels would do 1 million miles with no major maintenance. You are making sweeping generalisations that people run engines for charging anyway. We never run the engine for charging. Why would be do that? We have hydro charging, wind charging and 760w of solar. We could easily manage quite comfortably without an engine driven alternator. We have friends currently cruising the South Pacific with their original 1986 Perkins engine. Its needed no unusual maintenance other than oil and filters. 34 years old and still going strong with only oil changes. You seem to be under the impression diesel engines are some sort of maintenance nightmare. In my experience they run with little maintenance. My boat came with a diesel genset that uses a twin cylinder Perkins. They are used in freezer truck cooling units. They run for 10s of thousands of hours trouble free.
Diesel engines will be a round for a while yet and it will be a few years before all electric boats out number diesel driven boats.

 

[lustyd]

Running in an engine makes no difference whatsoever. The issue is a lack of pressure on the piston rings, and that affects engines of any age. You're right, searching this forum I was only able to find a couple of thousand threads about engine maintenenace

 

[geem]

Running in an engine makes no difference whatsoever. The issue is a lack of pressure on the piston rings, and that affects engines of any age. You're right, searching this forum I was only able to find a couple of thousand threads about engine maintenenace

I think you are confusing maintenance with lack of maintenance?
In 2,500 hours my engine has had a new thermostat, an injector and I swapped a relay. But then again its a Perkins?