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To stand on, or not to stand on

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That ditty is one of the silliest and inappropriately quoted bits of nonsense that is trotted out.

Firstly, there's no such thing as 'right of way' but assuming that it's an inaccurate colloquialism for 'stand on vessel' then this fictional Daniel was a fool. IRPCS require you to stand on (if you are the stand on vessel) until it is clear that the other vessel isn't taking avoiding action (or you're not confident that the other vessel is taking sufficient and appropriate action to avoid a close quarters situation) and then the IRPCS demands that you take avoiding action.. IRPCS does NOT say stand on until you are run down by sa ship that's bigger than you. Taking very early avoiding action in some misguided belief that you are avoiding any possibility of a situation where stand on vs give way is an issue is confusing and irritating to the OOW of ships. (I know because I've been there.). They almost certainly clocked you a long time before you clocked them and 99.9 times out of a 100 will have already assessed the situation and taken appropriate action. Just don't expect big course changes from them. They're expensive on fuel and wake the Captain up.

There's no such thing as might is right.

As soon as you are in sight of each other and appear to be (or might possibly be) in a closing situation in open waters then IRPCS apply regardless of the size of the respective vessels.

Please go and learn the rules and apply them. You will discover that ships great and small almost always comply and if they aren't complying then make appropriate avoiding action (which usually means NOT turning to Port) as a close quarters situation looks as though it might develop. Please don't pretend you're avoiding them early. Such unpredictable actions just confuse and irritate ships (although many of them have come to expect Yotties to behave like prats).

Read back through this or other threads on this subject. In fifty years of sailing I can only remember a very small slack handful of occasions when ship's great and small have complied with the rules when I am sailing (or motoring and am stand on vessel).

If you don't believe me, get an AIS system and watch the CPA of ships that hove into view as you sail across the channel or other shipping lanes. Find one that looks as though it's going to be close and hold your course and watch the ship alter for you by a few degrees to open up the CPA. They're doing it all the time in the Channel for Ferries, Fishing boats and other shipping and they'll do it for you too so long as you're predictable and sail by the IRPCS.
Oh for Gods sake.............................
 

steve350

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All right and proper, though I'm a 'get out of their way' kind of sailor, but only when its well before a collision has to be considered as imminent. For me thats within 5 minutes or longer if I can manage it, depending on relative courses and speed.
Yes. There's often no need to enter into a situation where the colregs apply. Once they are invoked then the rules need adhering to
 

john_morris_uk

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Yes. There's often no need to enter into a situation where the colregs apply. Once they are invoked then the rules need adhering to
Having been on the bridge of warships and merchant ships I think the problem is that the rules apply a lot earlier than many yacht skippers realise. The ship is planning and altering when it’s multiple miles away.
It’s not like two yachts meeting in the Solent.
It sounds so convincing to say early’ to avoid where IRPCS apply but it might be well after the ship has already assessed and altered. (You just haven’t noticed yet). In fact my experience of training small boat skippers is that they often not only haven’t noticed that the ship has altered, but they’re still trying to work out if the ship that’s just appeared over the horizon is even a threat.
 

steve350

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Having been on the bridge of warships and merchant ships I think the problem is that the rules apply a lot earlier than many yacht skippers realise. The ship is planning and altering when it’s multiple miles away.
It’s not like two yachts meeting in the Solent.
It sounds so convincing to say early’ to avoid where IRPCS apply but it might be well after the ship has already assessed and altered. (You just haven’t noticed yet). In fact my experience of training small boat skippers is that they often not only haven’t noticed that the ship has altered, but they’re still trying to work out if the ship that’s just appeared over the horizon is even a threat.
A good point John.

Would you suggest that the yacht skipper assumes the col regs are in play when a warship or merchant vessel becomes visible to him? I'm interested to learn from your experience.

The timing of applying the rules seems a contentious area when the col regs are discussed.
 

john_morris_uk

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A good point John.

Would you suggest that the yacht skipper assumes the col regs are in play when a warship or merchant vessel becomes visible to him? I'm interested to learn from your experience.

The timing of applying the rules seems a contentious area when the col regs are discussed.
I see it from a different starting point. If I’m on passage sailing from A to B then I’m either sailing a course that I’ve calculated is the best and most direct one or I’m sailing a course that’s ‘best to windward’ to make good my progress in the right direction or I’m sailing a course that’s most comfortable and more or less in the right direction. Whatever the reason for my chosen sailplan and course, there’s got to be a good reason for me to change it. If I’m without AIS and a line of ships appears from my port side (I’ll say port as if I’m motor sailing it makes me stand on) then experience tells me it’s more likely to be the third or fourth ship that might get anywhere near me. But even if experience tells me the first ship is probably going to pass in front of me as I pootle along on my course, if they’re in sight and heading even vaguely in my direction then they all need to be watched and monitored. There’s certainly no reason to start altering course.

There’s no guaranteed distance but lots of ships monitor shipping at six miles away or so but it depends on lots of factors and there’s no hard and fast rule.

So in the scenario above, I’ve started to take bearings and assess the situation. In real life nowadays and with radar and AIS I have a quick look at the plotter and identify the ships on AIS and check their CPA’s. Only occasionally do you find one where the CPA is small enough to cause concern. If this happens and I’m stand on vessel I stand on and watch carefully. If I’m give way vessel then it’s usually a very obvious turn to starboard.

I called a ship on VHF (for the first time in many years) two years ago. Coming north from the CI’s I was motor sailing in a light breeze that was just sufficient to fill the Genoa that obscured my motor sailing cone. From the ships point of view as he approached from my starboard side I was sailing and stand on vessel but as a motor sailing vessel I was give way. When the ship was still several miles away, I called him and told him I was under engine and was altering to starboard to pass behind him. He was very courteous and grateful as he was about to alter for me.
 

GHA

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Here lies the body of Daniel O Day,
who died maintaining his right of way,
He was right, dead right as he sailed along,
but he is just as dead as if he had been wrong.

I once sailed with a skipper who always maintained his right of way. It made for very stressful sailing. The trick is to alter course long before right of way is even an issue. "Might is right".
Anyone talking about right of way is carrying a big sign saying 'I don't know the irpcs, ignore me.'
Oday would have sailed another day if only he had spent some time learning and understand the irpcs like you're supposed to. That's the trick.
 

RichardS

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Here lies the body of Daniel O Day,
who died maintaining his right of way,
He was right, dead right as he sailed along,
but he is just as dead as if he had been wrong.

I once sailed with a skipper who always maintained his right of way. It made for very stressful sailing. The trick is to alter course long before right of way is even an issue. "Might is right".
Post #66 nailed it a long time ago. :(

Richard
 
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Anyone talking about right of way is carrying a big sign saying 'I don't know the irpcs, ignore me.'
Oday would have sailed another day if only he had spent some time learning and understand the irpcs like you're supposed to. That's the trick.
Its a ditty and is more about a state of mind when approaching this subject. I did not expect to fall foul of the col reg police on here. YBW seems to attract so many grim humourless types. Far more than the other forums.
 

GHA

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Its a ditty and is more about a state of mind when approaching this subject. I did not expect to fall foul of the col reg police on here. YBW seems to attract so many grim humourless types. Far more than the other forums.
If you talk poo about right of way then you'll get pulled up, cos you obviously don't have much of a handle on the irpcs. No point trying to get a dig in to cover your lack of knowledge.
Go do some studying instead. Or just stay out of things you don't understand.
 
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We all know the story of Michael O'Day but, as it's a load of rubbish, and also refers to a nonsense called "right of way", I doubt whether any of us ever want to hear it again. :(

Richard
He asked about John. I see the col reg police are about. I dont know how i managed to get around on my boat collision free (well except once) all these years without the col reg police on this forum.
 

RichardS

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He asked about John. I see the col reg police are about. I dont know how i managed to get around on my boat collision free (well except once) all these years without the col reg police on this forum.
The O'Day twins. Like peas in a pod that pair .... nice but dim. ;)

Did your sole collision result from a ColRegs misunderstanding, perchance? :)

Richard
 

steve350

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Thanks for that reply John. From my own limited experience. I've not been in a situation where I've had to take evasive action. When ships have been present I've held a steady course, monitored the larger vessels and found they pass aft of me. As you say, the ships are probably seeing the bigger picture and making their course changes early and accordingly.
The point you make about ships monitoring their environment at a range of 6 miles is interesting. I guess their height of eye also affords them a greater appreciation of the situation, being able to see far beyond the yachtsman horizon.

My take on the vid in the OP was that the skipper should have taken earlier action to avoid a near miss situation from developing. As the situation unfolded and the regs. came into play he should have held his course and speed and not been faffing around. That's easy to say of course from this distance.
 
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If you talk poo about right of way then you'll get pulled up, cos you obviously don't have much of a handle on the irpcs. No point trying to get a dig in to cover your lack of knowledge.
Go do some studying instead. Or just stay out of things you don't understand.
The O'Day twins. Like peas in a pod that pair .... nice but dim. ;)

Did your sole collision result from a ColRegs misunderstanding, perchance? :)

Richard
No
 
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To late. Bring up right of way and everyone knows you don't have a grasp of the irpcs.
Unhelpful, some new guys might mistake your posts for someone who knows, do the world a favour, go learn or just keep out of it. :rolleyes:
Are you in the Col regs police? I see you think you are a moderator now. Where will it end? No platforming??
 
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