Sorry in advance, but... retaining EU VAT paid status

[duncan_m]

Change the boats registry to an EU country is an option. What's not clear to me around the mythical day is whether EU flagged boats in the UK will lose their VAT paid status.

This seems unlikely given the number of commercial vessels that could be in the UK at that time but would be interested to hear anyones thoughts..

 

[syvictoria]

Change the boats registry to an EU country is an option. What's not clear to me around the mythical day is whether EU flagged boats in the UK will lose their VAT paid status.

This seems unlikely given the number of commercial vessels that could be in the UK at that time but would be interested to hear anyones thoughts..

I don't believe that registration and VAT are related (in this context at least). Boats will be left with either UK or EU VAT paid status depending upon their location on 31/12 AFAIA.

Commercial vessels is an interesting point which hadn't previously occurred to me. They certainly can't all be expected to be in the EU on 31/12 surely, or are there in fact very few that wouldn't prefer a UK VAT paid status anyway?

 

[Chris_Robb]

I'm sure that I already know the answer to this, but I can't help but optimistically hope that I may have overlooked something, somewhere. Other than the boat being present in the EU on the night of the 31st Dec 2020, is there ANY other way to retain EU VAT paid status? Please, no Brexit slanging match - just constructive ideas, or more likely, big fat NOs.

(P.S.: Feel free to PM me!)

In theory, the EU has said "Any Yacht in UK Customs territories (UK Waters) " will become UK VAT Paid. So in theory, sailing anywhere else in the world you would be fine.

Then there is the word - Exported (3 years). I think this is a red herring as exporting a yacht or any goods for that matter is conscious decision requiring lots of paperwork. Just sailing round the world is not , in my mind - exporting.

I am testing this with the Greek Tax department for a ruling -- based on the theory - if the Greeks agree - any one will. I hope I will have an answer. Consider yachts in the Caribbean - French - are they going to loose their status? No - the rule therefore must be applied across the board as "Goods" are stateless and are credited with where they are.

I hope to find out soon!

 

[Chris_Robb]

Change the boats registry to an EU country is an option. What's not clear to me around the mythical day is whether EU flagged boats in the UK will lose their VAT paid status.

This seems unlikely given the number of commercial vessels that could be in the UK at that time but would be interested to hear anyones thoughts..

Re EU Flagged Yachts. - the commission realised that this could be a problem, and dusted off a piece of legislation called Returned Goods Relief - RGR. This in its history has never been used for yachts as it was applicable to Exported Goods. However it was the tool which would allow the French to return from the UK!

Hence they changed it to UK Customs Zone as well to be more specific.

 

[Graham376]

In theory, the EU has said "Any Yacht in UK Customs territories (UK Waters) " will become UK VAT Paid. So in theory, sailing anywhere else in the world you would be fine.
Then there is the word - Exported (3 years). I think this is a red herring as exporting a yacht or any goods for that matter is conscious decision requiring lots of paperwork. Just sailing round the world is not , in my mind - exporting.
I am testing this with the Greek Tax department for a ruling -- based on the theory - if the Greeks agree - any one will. I hope I will have an answer. Consider yachts in the Caribbean - French - are they going to loose their status? No - the rule therefore must be applied across the board as "Goods" are stateless and are credited with where they are.
I hope to find out soon!

I think what the EU are trying to say is that any vessel not owned by an EU resident or citizen (us when we leave) will lose it's EU VAT status if it's outside the EU on 31/12. No doubt the wording will alter as negotiations and legislation progress.

Boats in the EU will retain EU status as well as in our case UK status if/when we return, using RGR. I "think" EU residents of any nationality with boats outside the EU should be able to use RGR to bring them back into EU.

 

[nortada]

I think what the EU are trying to say is that any vessel not owned by an EU resident or citizen (us when we leave) will lose it's EU VAT status if it's outside the EU on 31/12. No doubt the wording will alter as negotiations and legislation progress.

Boats in the EU will retain EU status as well as in our case UK status if/when we return, using RGR. I "think" EU residents of any nationality with boats outside the EU should be able to use RGR to bring them back into EU.

Sorry - bit of thread drift but currently trapped here in Portugal (courtesy of the British Government declaring Portugal Covid red ) not a problem.

England 63 died of covid yesterday, Algarve 15 deaths since the beginning if the pandemic and none for the last month, seems a funny decision.

Know where we feel safest.

 

[Graham376]

Sorry - bit of thread drift but currently trapped here in Portugal (courtesy of the British Government declaring Portugal Covid red ) not a problem.

No need to feel trapped, use Air Lingus via Dublin or KLM via Holland, no quarantine.if you don't admit to having been in Portugal for preceding 14 days.

 

[syvictoria]

My T2L arrived back this morning, stamped and official looking! Very quick service.

 

[25931]

No need to feel trapped, use Air Lingus via Dublin or KLM via Holland, no quarantine.if you don't admit to having been in Portugal for preceding 14 days.

Are there flights from Seville ?

 

[Graham376]

Are there flights from Seville ?

Yes, according to their website - Find cheap flights to Europe | Ryanair’s Fare Finder

 

[25931]

Yes, according to their website - Find cheap flights to Europe | Ryanair’s Fare Finder

Thanks.

 

[Chris_Robb]

T2L states that goods are in free movement within the EU customs zone and was never designed to be used by cruising boats. As we leave the customs union on 31/12, it "may" still be valid for boats already present in Portugal and Croatia (the two States who like to see it) but, as far as EU are concerned, boats not in EU on 31/12 will have been exported so I'm pretty certain T2L irrelevant/useless for those boats.

If you look at the EU guidance on this, they say "Yachts in UK Customs Territorys will become UK vat paid."
That implies that any yacht not in the EU27 on b-day ie any where other than UK customs territories, ie UK waters, will retain EU27 VAT.

I have currently asked the commission to confirm this Sam also getting a ruling from the Greek min of finance as this is important for many currently stuck in Turkey.

This word EXPORTED. To me that implies an action in preparing EXPORT papers AND importing it to another country. I don't think it has ever been that just sailing to Turkey is exporting it.

We shall see hopefully

 

[nortada]

If you look at the EU guidance on this, they say "Yachts in UK Customs Territorys will become UK vat paid."
That implies that any yacht not in the EU27 on b-day ie any where other than UK customs territories, ie UK waters, will retain EU27 VAT.

I have currently asked the commission to confirm this Sam also getting a ruling from the Greek min of finance as this is important for many currently stuck in Turkey.

This word EXPORTED. To me that implies an action in preparing EXPORT papers AND importing it to another country. I don't think it has ever been that just sailing to Turkey is exporting it.

We shall see hopefully

Interesting discussion but I think it will all boil down to the official (in Croatia or Portugal) that confronts you demanding sight of your T2L.

Fortunately, this silly situation is confined to just 2 EU countries.

Unfortunately, if T2L is raised with other EU countries they could join the band-wagon. Potentially exacerbating the issue.

My solution; if you want a T2L, get one before the end of this year but DO NOT discuss T2L with EU administrations.

A thought; would there be any mileage for boats, who anticipate being 'stuck' outside the EU on 31/12/2000, getting T2L, which they could subsequently produce to confirm their EU status?

 

[dune16]

I got this from the EU helpdesk in response to my email. Basically if the boat is in the EU27 end of transition the boat will have eu vat paid status, no longer uk paid and vice versa. Its important to get solid proof where your boat was on Dec 31st 2020, I'm going to get a letter from my marina and perhaps archive ais data. I've also obtained the t2l

----

Until 31 December 2020, the United Kingdom (UK) will remain part of the EU VAT territory. Thus until 31 December 2020, VAT only needs to be paid once, either in the UK or in an EU Member State.
As you indicate, where the recreational boat has been released for free circulation at import in the EU or has been manufactured in the EU, it has obtained the customs status of Union goods.
After the UK's withdrawal from the EU, any goods in the customs territory of the UK will lose their Union status and will become UK goods. The customs status of a UK boat will depend on its location at that point in time: if the boat is located in an EU port or sails in EU territorial waters, you are right in saying that it will keep its Union status; if the boat is located in the UK, its status will be that of a third-country boat when arriving in the territorial waters of the Union, i.e. it will be treated as non-Union goods. Customs controls for such UK boats will be the same as for boats coming from a third country. This was also mentioned in a Brexit preparedness note from the Commission, published on 30 January 2018: https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/file_import/customs_and_indirect_taxation_en.pdf.
In relation to how a proof of Union Status of goods can be provided, the legal basis is in Article 199 of the Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) 2015/2447. In general, the following means of proof appear most suitable for leisure boats prior to the deployment of the Proof of Union Status system: a paper T2L or an invoice or transport document for goods with a value above EUR 15,000. For more details, please refer to the e-learning module available at the Commission's website on taxation and customs: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custo...earning/07-ucc_customs_status_of_goods_en.pdf. Following the Brexit preparedness notice mentioned above, a specific notice on VAT was published on 11 September 2018: https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/value-addedtax_en.pdf"

 

[Graham376]

I got this from the EU helpdesk in response to my email. Basically if the boat is in the EU27 end of transition the boat will have eu vat paid status, no longer uk paid and vice versa. Its important to get solid proof where your boat was on Dec 31st 2020, I'm going to get a letter from my marina and perhaps archive ais data. I've also obtained the t2l

The boat will retain UK VAT paid status as long as it remains in the same ownership and can be taken back to UK under Returned Goods Relief.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Interesting discussion but I think it will all boil down to the official (in Croatia or Portugal) that confronts you demanding sight of your T2L.

Fortunately, this silly situation is confined to just 2 EU countries.

Unfortunately, if T2L is raised with other EU countries they could join the band-wagon. Potentially exacerbating the issue.

My solution; if you want a T2L, get one before the end of this year but DO NOT discuss T2L with EU administrations.

A thought; would there be any mileage for boats, who anticipate being 'stuck' outside the EU on 31/12/2000, getting T2L, which they could subsequently produce to confirm their EU status?

No T2L can wave the magic wand if you are in UK Customs Territories on B-day. As I regard the T2L as a distraction - except Portugal and Croatia - I wont be discussing it with anyone!!

 

[Graham376]

No T2L can wave the magic wand if you are in UK Customs Territories on B-day. As I regard the T2L as a distraction - except Portugal and Croatia - I wont be discussing it with anyone!!

Just wondering what will happen with Gib based boats, will they all head to the other side of the runway and anchor off La Linea beach on N Years eve?

 

[nortada]

No T2L can wave the magic wand if you are in UK Customs Territories on B-day. As I regard the T2L as a distraction - except Portugal and Croatia - I won't be discussing it with anyone!!

You are, with us, on here!

Wish I could be so certain.

The only thing in Portugal is it was sunny yesterday, it is sunny today and will be sunny tomorrow.?

 

[nortada]

Just wondering what will happen with Gib based boats, will they all head to the other side of the runway and anchor off La Linea beach on N Years eve?

Think they will have to take a maina berth as AIS will probably not be sufficient evidence.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Just wondering what will happen with Gib based boats, will they all head to the other side of the runway and anchor off La Linea beach on N Years eve?

Technically Gib is not in the EU Customs zone - so not in UK waters, so in theory you don't loose EU27 Vat Paid - but I am waiting for a ruling on this from the Greeks and the EU Commission.
My own view is that I would not risk it and would make sure I was tucked up with bills to prove it in a Spanish Marina.