SoF Berths

[Portofino]

I ve never noticed there’s such a thing as a free lunch .
Any concessions in any interim period while they sort it out will be added back later and amortised over a recovery period .
They are all slightly different the leases , not just the terms but the actual mechanics.
So it’s dangerous liking one solution as a fix it for all .

St Jeans May be very simple with fewer hurdles and they may have already a turn key package ready to roll .Don't know !

 

[Portofino]

What sort of ball park numbers are you two thinking rent wise ?
Chris s Pershings I reckon near €20k pa + expenses .
Shanes Bav I figure circa € 10- 12 K pa + expenses.

Care to throw a dart guys ?

 

[Chris H]

What sort of ball park numbers are you two thinking rent wise ?
Chris s Pershings I reckon near €20k pa + expenses .
Shanes Bav I figure circa € 10- 12 K pa + expenses.

Care to throw a dart guys ?

Don’t know exactly, if I start adding all the numbers up I wouldn’t have bought a boat ! but your not far off, I’ve also got a 19m berth when I could have got away with16/17m for my boat.

I know Saint Jean service charge is 3 x more than BSM

 

[mcanderson]

Porto, I know that the way Beaulieu and St Jean handle the end of the port leases will be vastly different, but there will be some similarities.
One of the reasons for Beaulieu being such a mess is that the local Marie have a very vested interest in keeping the local population happy or he/she will be looking for a new job! So the locals mainly have small boats and want small berths. Any new owner will want to swap small berths for larger (more profitable) berths.
Anyway it will be interesting to watch.
As an aside we pay €8250 a year all in inc electricity.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Btw anybody got any good ideas where I can find a modestly priced 20m berth for rent in SoF after the Antibes leases run out at end of 2021?

 

[mcanderson]

Mike a 20m berth in Beaulieu is €33,000 a year as an annual rental. A 22m berth is €35,000. The length is done to the centimetre in Beaulieu so you can be 20.1 on a 20m berth.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Mike a 20m berth in Beaulieu is €33,000 a year as an annual rental. A 22m berth is €35,000. The length is done to the centimetre in Beaulieu so you can be 20.1 on a 20m berth.

Yes thats what concerns me! Similar to what Antibes will be after 2021 by all accounts

 

[Chris H]

Yes thats what concerns me! Similar to what Antibes will be after 2021 by all accounts

Will they be rental only ?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Will they be rental only ?

No, they're actually falling over themselves to sell leases on berths rather than rent them and the prices of the leases are currently in excess of the multiple of the rent over the period of the lease (ie a premium). The other huge downer for me is that they've reduced the max allowable beam for each berth so for my 20m boat I need to buy/rent a 24m berth now. Either way I dont want to stay in Antibes enough to pay a lease premium and I dont really want to sink that much cash into a lease either

I'm guessing that this CV19 situation might reduce demand for berths in which case there might be a deal to be done on buying a lease in the next few months

 

[Portofino]

Will they be rental only ?

Thats what I understand @ the end of the concessions .
Paris won’t allow a re issue of what happened before .

Additionally they have a cap ex figure Paris agreed jointly with the mayors and the middle layer of the local maritime agency to plough in to each marina .
Antibes is huge equal to the others added up .
The rows and delays are local squabbles of who,s gonna fund the cap ex , and how ? It’s has be generated locally be each site .
Existing berth holders are obviously sitting cash cows .
So it’s not just a simple case of divi up the existing running costs as now proportionately among the users it’s that plus the cap ex .
I have the details of each cap ex somewhere .Antibes is for more shops / hotel / restaurants/ swimming pool / marine school + much more .Obviously the operators of theses ventures will become tenants .
But tenants after the big spends .

With the small local fishing fleets, a two tier thing happens .They get away on a lower scale subsidised by the bigger private yachts .Marinas split into a public ( locals ) and private sectors with different scales of charges .....again row fuel .

The last I heard they ( Paris + regional marine agency ) are not gonna give out or extend any existing concessions .
Default position is the Mayors office gets it .......but as said the poison chalice of coming up with the cap ex .
Hence there hesitation to accept them as if it turns sour the bill drops on the locals .At the mo the locals / Mayors office has no risk .
How ever having said that Antibes last few years are being run by the Mayors office as a interim thing .....when the concession is up then iirc there cap ex is a stupid number like €120 M cant remember . That’s gotta be found from the site .
Others are region €10 per marina ish .

La Napoule s concession is the longest along the strip end Dec 2029 .
We , the berth holders are all share holders and via AGM ,s elect a board ....call all the shots we control it .
We have already absorbed 2x levels of cap ex working on our own with the Mayor , who’s on the board btw and keeps his boat in the marina .First was only €2M we divided up amongst the berth holders to develop the esplanade so in the summer the Mayors office can put on public events like markets etc .We got a 5 y extension .
The 2 nd was a €5 M project to make a new catamaran dedicated jetty , better ferry jetty , and better beach facilities.
For that we negotiated another 5 y extension .Hence where we are now .
The costs for this 2nd phase has been amortised in the maintenance charges for the last 10 years .
Costs me another €800 pa over 10 years for that 5 y extension .

So returning back to the cap ex , it’s Paris that’s dished it out ......sort of catch up .If you walk round Antibes you can see it’s been starved by the outgoing ( before the Mayors office stepped in ) of investment / development, to keep costs down for the berth holders ..Berth holders have luxated in low costs arguably.........and basically its pay gonna be back time once the leases lapse .
How much each marina rents rise post concession era basically depends on on little investment the outgoing concession holders put in while they had control .

Can not see local residents ( brick n mortar folks ) wanting to sub the boat owners , or accept fewer cops , teachers etc .

 

[Bouba]

I'm guessing that this CV19 situation might reduce demand for berths in which case there might be a deal to be done on buying a lease in the next few months

I had hoped for similar after the 2008 crash. No such luck. Did anyone find a good deal after the crash?
There is too much pent up demand for places

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I had hoped for similar after the 2008 crash. No such luck. Did anyone find a good deal after the crash?
There is too much pent up demand for places

Youre right. I was berthed in Palma, Majorca at the time and there were no good deals on berthing rates at that time. In fact, far worse than that, at that time the local tax authorities decided to target British and German boat owners with the Spanish matriculation tax which hit many owners, including me, just at the time when they could afford it the least. Many owners were so incensed that they left the island as a result of that and I wont go back there for that reason

FWIW, the EU later ruled that the application of the Spanish matriculation tax to foreigners was illegal but that was several years later and long after there was any chance of getting the money back

 

[jrudge]

Antibes - as above - as trying to sell berths. At present the terms do not seem attractive. I believe they thought there would be a stampede.

Existing owners get first dibs- but only on your current berth. There is no shortage of them! They are also giving over a lower portion of the rent should you be away.

Whilst I am sure they are privately panicking, I would imagine they will put on a brave face for now. In the long term something may happen price wise as I suspect quite a few boats will go as a result of what is happening - but they all have to be parked somewhere and the SOF and Mallorca are 100% full.

 

[Portofino]

They will squeeze E into Liguaria .
Already seeing or saw it happening before C19 .

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Whilst I am sure they are privately panicking, I would imagine they will put on a brave face for now. In the long term something may happen price wise as I suspect quite a few boats will go as a result of what is happening - but they all have to be parked somewhere and the SOF and Mallorca are 100% full.

Yeah but other parts of the Med are not full and that is their problem. They cannot just ignore the fact that the global economy has crashed and fewer people have got money to splash on a new berth lease right now so they're going to have to cut some deals if they want to move these leases on. Or they can stick their heads in the sand and be stuck with a whole load of unsold leases which after the end of next year are diminishing in value

 

[markc]

Our lease is up a the end of the year, and no proposal yet, although the marina sent a letter in December saying that they will be issuing details of the annual rent scheme sometime this year. They did offer a 10 year lease extension last year but not many people took it up apparently. I have a feeling it will be around £15k pa for 17m berth, although that could change after CV19 - the 3 ports in Saint Raphael are fully operated by the local council.

 

[Chris H]

Our lease is up a the end of the year, and no proposal yet, although the marina sent a letter in December saying that they will be issuing details of the annual rent scheme sometime this year. They did offer a 10 year lease extension last year but not many people took it up apparently. I have a feeling it will be around £15k pa for 17m berth, although that could change after CV19 - the 3 ports in Saint Raphael are fully operated by the local council.

I hope they come in a little cheaper than that, when we were enquiring in the VAR , at council run ports, we were told because they are not part of CdA and council run they are a fair bit cheaper than ports down the coast, if that figure is correct and the other ports are even more expensive, it will push boaters away.

 

[markc]

I hope they come in a little cheaper than that, when we were enquiring in the VAR , at council run ports, we were told because they are not part of CdA and council run they are a fair bit cheaper than ports down the coast, if that figure is correct and the other ports are even more expensive, it will push boaters away.

Well, I would hope so, but the lease extension on my berth equated to about 10k pa, which is similar to the cost when I bought the lease with 4 years remaining, plus 4k pa service charge. Based on the port being full (1600 berths) I'm assuming that they may squeeze it up... Of course, hoping that they don't!

 

[s50cam]

Just revisiting this thread. I need a 10m berth from next Apr/May. I have a place near Antibes but am flexible say within 1hr down to Sainte Maxine etc. I had thought it being a small berth it wouldn’t really be an issue.
- Should I be trying to secure something now or has it eased up ?
- If it’s still bad, should I try to purchase a French boat with Berth agreement attached ?
- I’d be happy to have just the extended summer season in and then out during winter. Does that make a difference ?
TIA

 

[Adrian]

Just revisiting this thread. I need a 10m berth from next Apr/May. I have a place near Antibes but am flexible say within 1hr down to Sainte Maxine etc. I had thought it being a small berth it wouldn’t really be an issue.
- Should I be trying to secure something now or has it eased up ?
- If it’s still bad, should I try to purchase a French boat with Berth agreement attached ?
- I’d be happy to have just the extended summer season in and then out during winter. Does that make a difference ?
TIA

Try Port Cogolin they offered me a berth last year (didn't need it in the end), there's very little out of water storage round here. You could do what I did and buy an apartment with a mooring in Port Grimaud.